Affirmative action

[popestpiusx]

Affirmative action is a joke. People should e judged entirely upon their merits, not their ethnicity.

[cmotherofpirl]

There also must be a way to overcome the fact that not all school districts are created equal, and many people, given half a chance can excell and overcome their starting piont.

Opportunity is the problem, not ethnicity.

[popestpiusx]

Opportunity is not defined as lowering the standard so some black guy, who the government assumes is to stupid to succeed on his own, can get into a school that he may or may not be qualified to get into. But he gets in anyway because he is black, not because he is qualified.

Not all school systems are created equal? What level of school are we talking here? College? Of course not. Nor should they be. Some schools are better than others or excel at different things. There is nothing wrong with that. Is man not the same? Not everyone has the ability to handle the academic rigor of MIT. Should they make it easier there so that half wits like me can succeed? Should they require MIT to allow a cetain number of minorities? No and No. The school is what it is. Merit speaks for itself. If you are good enough, you can get in. If not, go somewhere else.

[Sojourner]

It is ridiculous to think that intelligence -- merit -- is the only factor that determines whether or not someone can make it through the doors of MIT, or any other post-secondary school.

Perhaps the single largest factor that comes into play is poverty. Not all school districts are created equal, as Cmom said – and she’s talking, I’m sure, about elementary and secondary schools. Access to resources, to high-caliber teachers, and the social factors that play into a student’s life all play a role in the quality of education he or she will receive before ever thinking about college.

Even if a kid does manage to overcome growing up poor in a single-parent home, the chances of having the money or the encouragement to go on to college are not that great. It happens, sure, but not as often as it should.

[hopeful1]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:55 AM'] It is ridiculous to think that intelligence -- merit -- is the only factor that determines whether or not someone can make it through the doors of MIT, or any other post-secondary school.

Perhaps the single largest factor that comes into play is poverty. Not all school districts are created equal, as Cmom said – and she’s talking, I’m sure, about elementary and secondary schools. Access to resources, to high-caliber teachers, and the social factors that play into a student’s life all play a role in the quality of education he or she will receive before ever thinking about college.

Even if a kid does manage to overcome growing up poor in a single-parent home, the chances of having the money or the encouragement to go on to college are not that great. It happens, sure, but not as often as it should. [/quote]
I'm starting to think along these lines as well. I used to look at affirmative action in the past as reverse discrimination against whites (men & women), but after doing some research on the minority achievement gap in education and the related issues like racial, social, and economic factors, it really made me reconsider the issue, especially as things like poverty can last in families for generations. These conditions are usually more prevalent in minorities. Of course i believe the most qualified person should get the job in the end, regardless of race-and i think everyone on both sides of the issue believe that. The question i keep looking at is opportunies the less advantaged person was actually given to become qualified. as cmom and soujourner said, not all institutions are created equal. to add to this, not all institutions educate their students equally. especially if they come from low income families, go to innercity schools, or face teachers who already think that minority students are doomed to fail. I also think what region of the country you live in makes a difference on the amount of discrimination one faces. this is just a guess on my part, but i think a minority-let's say a black person would face more discrimination in the south than up north. However, this may be naive of me to say becuase i am white, but i think there is less racial discrimination today than there was back in the day (although by no means is it nonexistant!), yet it's you can see the lingering effects of racism in this generation. Perhaps there is still a need for affirmative action. I just question if lowering the standards for excellence or fullfilling racial quotas is the answer...

[bookwyrm]

I think it's really degrading. I mean, if I were to be accepted for something, anything, because I was a minority and not because I was qualified, I would be insulted. It would be like saying, 'because you're a minority, we don't think you are capable of being as good as someone else from the majority.' :angry:

[jmjtina]

Opportunity is the key.

Check out the schools near the border. You'd think you WERE in Mexico, but these are American schools. Look at thier programs, thier supplies and then compare with schools up north. Don't say it doesn't happen today, because it does.

That is WHY there is a Texas A&M-Corpus Christi.
That is WHY there is a University of Texas in San Antonio.

It's not just about race. It's about opportunity. Yes, it needs work, but if we base it on "merit", did everyone get a chance to achieve the "merit" society wants?

If it's for the common good, it should stay. People aren't perfect.


here's an example:
[url="http://www.maldef.org/news/press.cfm?ID=243&FromIndex=yes"]$40 Million Payment, Detailed Plan for Diversity in Employment Discrimination Suit Against Retail Giant Abercrombie & Fitch [/url]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Nov 20 2004, 12:43 PM'] That is WHY there is a Texas A&M-Corpus Christi.
That is WHY there is a University of Texas in San Antonio.
[/quote]
I'm dumb... what does this mean...?

[jmjtina]

Texas A&M College Station and University of Texas are mother schools now to schools in the south because of a big lawsuit in the past. The college education down south (University of Corpus Christi, etc) was seen as inferior to the ones up north who happened to be majortiy anglo.

And so we now have TAMUCC, UTSA, and TAMUK (kingsville).

[littleflower+JMJ]

i wish it was based on merit or most "qualified" but in the real world theres bias and discrimination. last names like Rodriguez and Lopez will stop you from getting a job-- and thats if your not even a woman (which would stack up even more odds against you)

one of the superintendents put in applications at all the north texas schools to see what would happen. He knew he was very well-qualified and had the experience that none could compare, been in the state board and committees and he got none because they all went to white men who were underqualified

sorry but sometimes all it takes is a last name to keep you from getting a job or education--no matter how qualified you are.

because nothing can really stop the bias and prejudice a person has behind the registration desk in college or the hiring manager at a job you need.

thats why affirmative action is needed. i would not have made it through college--im not an all merit scholar--but i am working my butt off for my education because i know i need it. I'm achieving at the same capacity as those who society said "had merit", why should I be denied if I CAN do the same (if not better) work? and i would not even be in school w/o that chance.

you want to help end poverty? education is the way to do it.......the problem comes when no one wants to give you it.

"Education is our Freedom, and Freedom should be Everybody's Business" -Dr. Hector P. Garcia


the day when everyone has an equal opportunity is the day we will no longer need affirmative action. -_-

Merit as well shouldn't be defined as a test score.

Pax.

[M.SIGGA]

I think it's good for places that still refuse to integrate in the South like my racist high school lol.

[hopeful1]

what about racial quotas?

[hopeful1]

[quote name='bookwyrm' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:59 PM'] I think it's really degrading. I mean, if I were to be accepted for something, anything, because I was a minority and not because I was qualified, I would be insulted. It would be like saying, 'because you're a minority, we don't think you are capable of being as good as someone else from the majority.' :angry: [/quote]
that's what i thought about it at first too. it almost does sound intrinsically degrading.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='hopeful1' date='Nov 21 2004, 11:07 AM'] that's what i thought about it at first too. it almost does sound intrinsically degrading. [/quote]
For the majority, you either accept a scholarship, or you don't go to college.

It's that simple.

For us who depend on those scholarships, we accept. Are you going to pay for my college to help me feel better, so I don't feel "degraded"? Didn't think so.....

There are FOUR people in my household that are in college. Two of us in grad school.

Did ya read the link?

Edited November 21, 2004 by jmjtina

[hopeful1]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Nov 21 2004, 06:25 PM'] For the majority, you either accept a scholarship, or you don't go to college.

It's that simple.

For us who depend on those scholarships, we accept. Are you going to pay for my college to help me feel better, so I don't feel "degraded"? Didn't think so.....

There are FOUR people in my household that are in college. Two of us in grad school.

Did ya read the link? [/quote]
oh, i'm not disagreeing with you, I'm actually seeing a need for a affirmative action, the comment i made reflected what i used to think about it. And i did read the link, i may even use that to support affirmative action in my paper. It definately shows how racial discrimination in buisness still exists today. and if someone offered me a scholarship, i'd probably take it too.