Petra and Petros!?!?

[Guest element_zippy]

Peter=Cephas=Ke’pha=Petros=a piece of rock or a moveable rock

Rock=Petra=a huge rock like Gibraltar; immoveable rock

Matthew 16
18And I tell you, you are Peter [Greek, Petros--a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra--a huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the infernal region) shall not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].


Both words Greek

Both words mean close to the same thing

Except

God is not going to Build his church upon a piece of rock or a movable rock

He is going to build it on an immovable rock

THE immovable rock

Christ

This passage is encouraging Peter that he is a part of the rock, a part of the immovable rock, Christ who, he will build his church upon. This was a passage to show us that we are a part of that immovable rock that Christ is. That foundation that we are built on.

So what do you think about this passage?

BTW I love it when you use scripture!!!!

ZIPPY
Be INVISIBLE so GOD can BE VISIBLE!
Live God OUTLOUD!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

It must be noted that even though the text we use is Greek, the Gospel of Matthew was written originally in Aramaic (the other books were written in Greek).

Second, in Greek in the first century, the words Petros and Petra only had different meanings when used in poetry.

Third, it wouldn't make any sense for Christ to refer to Peter, start a blessing on Peter, and then refer back to Himself, and then go bad to Peter. It also wouldn't make sense for Christ to rename Simon Peter in this same blessing when he was talking about Himself using a very similar word. That just doesn't make sense and He would realize that it would confuse people. God doesn't seek to confuse us.

[CatholicCrusader]

Petra is feminine... St. Peter was a man.

[ironmonk]

[b]St. Matt 16:18 [/b] "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Cephas), and upon this rock (Cephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus is speaking directly to Peter here, this english version has been translated 3 times... Originally in Aramaic (Cephas = rock)... Then the Greek were we get the different endings of 'Petros', one is masculine and one is feminine... following proper grammer they could not give Peter the feminine and that is why there is a differnence in the Greek to English... An Aramaic to English would read "...you are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my church..."

Peter's name in Aramaic was Cephas as shown in John's Gospel and in Paul's letter to the Cornithians. Aramic is what was spoken and it means Rock.


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[b]John 1:42 [/b]
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

The argument that Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock is wrong.


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[b]John 21:15 [/b]
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
[b]16 [/b]He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
[b]17 [/b]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."


This also shows the same as with St. Matt 16:18 that Peter was the leader of the Apostles after Jesus went to Heaven. Peter was the first Pope.




God Bless and welcome to the board!
ironmonk

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 10:52 PM'] Petra is feminine... St. Peter was a man. [/quote]
Doesn't matter. Greek and Latin don't work that way. They have gender, but words have intrinsic gender values and if you call a male by a female name, it doesn't not become a male name. There are some words which can swing between male and female, but this is not one of them.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 15 2004, 11:34 PM'] Doesn't matter. Greek and Latin don't work that way. They have gender, but words have intrinsic gender values and if you call a male by a female name, it doesn't not become a male name. There are some words which can swing between male and female, but this is not one of them. [/quote]
Mea culpa

I know that is the case in Latin (e.g. St. Matthew the Evangelist in Latin is a first declension word, but I think that it is still masculine, such as poeta, nauta, agricola), but I have not studied Greek.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 11:36 PM'] Mea culpa

I know that is the case in Latin (e.g. St. Matthew the Evangelist in Latin is a first declension word, but I think that it is still masculine, such as poeta, nauta, agricola), but I have not studied Greek. [/quote]
No problem. It's actually all quite irrelevant anyway.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 16 2004, 12:34 AM'] Doesn't matter. Greek and Latin don't work that way. They have gender, but words have intrinsic gender values and if you call a male by a female name, it doesn't not become a male name. There are some words which can swing between male and female, but this is not one of them. [/quote]
I believe it does...

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Zippy,

Also, all who called themselves Christians believed Christ was talking about Peter as the Rock until the last 300 years or so.

Please note the dates and double check the quotes... You can find all the writings here for free:
[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

Or buy them at:

[url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url] (Protestant Edition)

[quote]The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.[/quote]

Why would protestants have to add front matter at a later date (after 1517 AD)?




[b]Tatian the Syrian[/b]


"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).


[b]Tertullian[/b]


"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).


[b]The Letter of Clement to James[/b]


"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).


[b]The Clementine Homilies[/b]


"[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).


[b]Origen[/b]


"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).


[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]


"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are
secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (ibid., 66[69]:8).


[b]Firmilian[/b]


"But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).

"[Pope] Stephen [I] . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17).


[b]Ephraim the Syrian[/b]


"[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).


[b]Optatus[/b]


"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).


[b]Ambrose of Milan[/b]


"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

"It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).


[b]Pope Damasus I[/b]


"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).


[b]Jerome[/b]


"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).


[b]Augustine[/b]


"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).


[b]Council of Ephesus[/b]


"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).


[b]Sechnall of Ireland[/b]


"Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]).


[b]Pope Leo I[/b]


"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]).


[b]Council of Chalcedon[/b]


"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 15 2004, 11:39 PM'] I believe it does...

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
[quote]When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros. [/quote]

Ah, I see. That is an oddity, though, as he could validly have called Peter [i]Petra[/i] in Greek without any problems with the Greek syntax.

*shrugs*

I suppose it does make a difference, simply because he seems to have wanted to refer to Peter with a masculine word, even though the Greeks would have found it unnecessary. In any event, it doesn't make a lick of difference to the theology, and he really could just have picked arbitrarily to use either [i]petros[/i] or [i]petra[/i] without any concern for which word he used, because they were synonyms in first century Greek.

[Cure of Ars]

From the reference section

[b]Peter is "The Rock"[/b]
--[url="http://www.netacc.net/%7Emafg/peter01.htm"]Exegesis of [b]Mat 16:18-19[/b][/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp"]Peter the Rock[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ170.HTM"]The Metaphor of Peter as "Rock"[/url]
--[url="http://catholicoutlook.com/rock2.html"]Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter Is the Rock[/url]
--[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.2/nutsandbolts.html"]The "Pebbles" Argument Goes Down[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Documents/RockPeterOrConfession.doc"]Is Peter the Rock, or Is the Rock only His Confession of Faith?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2882"]The Rock of the New Testament[/url]
--[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/peter.html"]An Exchange on Peter, the Papacy and Succession ([b]Mat 16:18-19[/b])[/url]
--[url="http://www.aboutcatholics.com/viewpage.php?story=17"]The Origin of the Papacy[/url]

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