Holy See Evaluating 40 Years of Ecumenism

[cmotherofpirl]

The Real Thing Doesn't Harm Catholic Identity, Says Cardinal Kasper

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 10, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Evaluating the last 40 years of dialogue among Christians, the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity says that genuine ecumenism does not harm Catholic identity.

Cardinal Walter Kasper expressed this conviction when presenting the international congress "The Decree on Ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council, 40 Years After," in the Vatican press office.

The meeting will take place Thursday through Saturday in Rocca di Papa, near Rome, to evaluate the ecumenical dialogue promoted since the publication of the 1964 decree "Unitatis Redintegratio."

The congress will address questions that the cardinal himself articulated: "What was the message and the objective of the document? What effect has it had in these years? Where have we arrived today in ecumenism? What still remains to be done?"

Cardinal Kasper said that "the Church's ecumenical awareness has grown." But he acknowledged that "problems and disappointments still exist" and "obviously, we have still not reached the objective: full and visible communion."

"We are in an intermediary state," he said. "Sometimes, old prejudices persist. Also to be deplored are signs of slowness and egoism."

He also lamented that at times "ecumenism falls prey to superficial activism."

Posing a question -- "Ecumenism, where are you going?" -- Cardinal Kasper explained that there are two tasks to be addressed: "Catholic identity and spiritual ecumenism."

"The suspicion that ecumenical dialogue harms our own Catholic identity is a grave suspicion," he noted. "The truth is the opposite: Dialogue presupposes partners who have their own identity."

Regarding spiritual ecumenism, the cardinal said: "Ecumenism is not a form of ecclesiastical diplomacy," but rather a "spiritual process."

In this connection, he revealed that the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity is preparing the draft of a "Vademecum of Spiritual Ecumenism," which will give "suggestions for the dioceses, guidelines."

Bishop Brian Farrell, secretary of the pontifical council, indicated that 260 people will attend the conference, including representatives from 28 episcopal conferences in Africa, 21 from America, 28 from Asia, 25 from Europe and two from Oceania. Representatives from the Eastern Catholic patriarchates, the Orthodox Churches, and other churches and Christian communities are also expected.

On Saturday at 5:30 p.m., John Paul II is scheduled to preside at a celebration of vespers in St. Peter's Basilica, to which representatives of churches and ecclesial communities, parishes and faithful of the Diocese of Rome, movements and associations that work and pray for Christian unity, have been invited.
ZE04111005

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 15 2004, 04:31 PM'] The Real Thing Doesn't Harm Catholic Identity, Says Cardinal Kasper

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 10, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Evaluating the last 40 years of dialogue among Christians, the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity says that genuine ecumenism does not harm Catholic identity.

Cardinal Walter Kasper expressed this conviction when presenting the international congress "The Decree on Ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council, 40 Years After," in the Vatican press office.

The meeting will take place Thursday through Saturday in Rocca di Papa, near Rome, to evaluate the ecumenical dialogue promoted since the publication of the 1964 decree "Unitatis Redintegratio."

The congress will address questions that the cardinal himself articulated: "What was the message and the objective of the document? What effect has it had in these years? Where have we arrived today in ecumenism? What still remains to be done?"

Cardinal Kasper said that "the Church's ecumenical awareness has grown." But he acknowledged that "problems and disappointments still exist" and "obviously, we have still not reached the objective: full and visible communion."

"We are in an intermediary state," he said. "Sometimes, old prejudices persist. Also to be deplored are signs of slowness and egoism."

He also lamented that at times "ecumenism falls prey to superficial activism."

Posing a question -- "Ecumenism, where are you going?" -- Cardinal Kasper explained that there are two tasks to be addressed: "Catholic identity and spiritual ecumenism."

"The suspicion that ecumenical dialogue harms our own Catholic identity is a grave suspicion," he noted. "The truth is the opposite: Dialogue presupposes partners who have their own identity."

Regarding spiritual ecumenism, the cardinal said: "Ecumenism is not a form of ecclesiastical diplomacy," but rather a "spiritual process."

In this connection, he revealed that the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity is preparing the draft of a "Vademecum of Spiritual Ecumenism," which will give "suggestions for the dioceses, guidelines."

Bishop Brian Farrell, secretary of the pontifical council, indicated that 260 people will attend the conference, including representatives from 28 episcopal conferences in Africa, 21 from America, 28 from Asia, 25 from Europe and two from Oceania. Representatives from the Eastern Catholic patriarchates, the Orthodox Churches, and other churches and Christian communities are also expected.

On Saturday at 5:30 p.m., John Paul II is scheduled to preside at a celebration of vespers in St. Peter's Basilica, to which representatives of churches and ecclesial communities, parishes and faithful of the Diocese of Rome, movements and associations that work and pray for Christian unity, have been invited.
ZE04111005 [/quote]
Too bad he doesn't mention the herds of apostates from the Church and the mass confusion on Salvation (people believing in non-Catholics being saved) that has occured since Vatican II and how the exact opposite was true before... as well as the error of being able to go to heretical services or miss Mass, whereas before that was non-existant in comparison. He also fails to mention how few Catholics even attend the new Mass in comparison with the Traditional Mass. Maybe he should research those areas and zenit can write an article about it... too bad that will never happen...

[noncatholicname]

Yup, you're one tough cookie there, aren't you?

[XIX]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:45 PM'] Too bad he doesn't mention the herds of apostates from the Church and the mass confusion on Salvation (people believing in non-Catholics being saved) that has occured since Vatican II and how the exact opposite was true before... [/quote]
C'mon, the Pope has said that it is possible for people tp be saved who aren't explicitly Catholics. Do you really believe the Pope is promoting heresy?

Anyways, do you have any factual info saying that more people miss Mass worldwide than they did at Vatican II? Along with all of the other terrible things you believe it has caused? Because right now, you are not making arguments, you are making assertions. Just wondering what your sources are.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='XIX' date='Nov 15 2004, 10:21 PM'] C'mon, the Pope has said that it is possible for people tp be saved who aren't explicitly Catholics. Do you really believe the Pope is promoting heresy?

Anyways, do you have any factual info saying that more people miss Mass worldwide than they did at Vatican II? Along with all of the other terrible things you believe it has caused? Because right now, you are not making arguments, you are making assertions. Just wondering what your sources are. [/quote]
Was the Pope who was an Arian promoting heresy? Was John XXII who said that there is no particular judgment promoting heresy? Was the Pope who was excommunicated after he died not a Catholic? All the answers are YES, but a layman has not the authority to pass the judgment. The Pope can be called an anti-Pope after his death, and plenty of Popes have personally taught error. I am not the one who is to condemn the Pope, but I can support the Church's teaching and preach it "without fail and without ceasing": Outside the Roman Catholic Church no one is saved -every Church Father, every Ecumenical Council speaking on it, and every pre-Modernist Pope...

As far as all the problems since Vatican II--there are too many to even list, here are a few: no Priest, seminarians, religious, faithful Catholics, Mass attendance, etc.--read Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II, which shows all the problems. Here is a list of a few with their stats:

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.
Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

[b]Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that [u]three[/u] in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only [u]one[/u] in four now attend. [/b]

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

I added the bold/underline.

Those come from [url="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948"]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=29948[/url] (by Patrick Buchanan, [i]An Index of Catholicism's Decline[/i]). For all of them, buy the book. It is an eye-opener.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The school one strikes me odd. The Catholic schools around here are becoming overloaded and even turn people away.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='thedude' date='Nov 15 2004, 11:05 PM'] The school one strikes me odd.  The Catholic schools around here are becoming overloaded and even turn people away. [/quote]
Before Vatican II everyone who was Catholic went to Catholic school. It was considered a sin not to send your child to a Catholic school without dispensation... it was not until recently (when the schools turned un-Catholic) that it would be considered OK not to send your children there (which happened to be the same time the prices started going up--it became a business instead of for the Catholic Faith).

Also, as you saw, half the schools were closed. If they were all still open right now, they would be as empty as the seminaries (the "very othodox" Josephium for Novus Ordo gives the older seminarians TWO ROOMS since they are so empty...)

Edited November 16, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[XIX]

First of all, your figures only include America, not the rest of the world. That's only about 5% of the world's population, and doesn't even consider the cultures that are not as rich at the USA.

Secondly, it assumes that 1965 is the date that everything turned against the Catholic Church in America. Granted things may have gotten worse over the last 40 years, but have you stopped to think that it might have all been caused by the separation of Church and state? That officially happened June 25, 1962.

Since all of the Church-crisis talk is based on America, then I think this would be caused by something that only affected America.

I'ma call it a night I think..

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='XIX' date='Nov 16 2004, 12:03 AM'] First of all, your figures only include America, not the rest of the world. That's only about 5% of the world's population, and doesn't even consider the cultures that are not as rich at the USA.

Secondly, it assumes that 1965 is the date that everything turned against the Catholic Church in America. Granted things may have gotten worse over the last 40 years, but have you stopped to think that it might have all been caused by the separation of Church and state? That officially happened June 25, 1962.

Since all of the Church-crisis talk is based on America, then I think this would be caused by something that only affected America.

I'ma call it a night I think.. [/quote]
No.. separation of Church and State officially took place 1776 at the founding of the United States... or rather when the Bill of Rights was rafified... that's what the First Amendment said... the date that prayer in schools was made illegal has nothing (or very, very little) to do with the problems... Moreover, the problems are worldwide, not just in the US. Look at Europe!!

[amarkich]

bump to XIX, I would like to hear his argument, if he has one.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Do you think the 1st Amendment really separates Church and state? Or was it merely hijacked by liberals?

Edited November 16, 2004 by thedude

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='thedude' date='Nov 16 2004, 07:37 PM'] Do you think the 1st Amendment really separates Church and state? Or was it merely hijacked by liberals? [/quote]
It definitely means separation of Church and State... Jefferson (certainly no liberal in the American spectrum--objectively, yes, he was, as is anyone who believes in the American system, which is condemned as heresy of Americanism) said such in a letter as early as 1804. Moreover, the masons who founded the country are based around such a law: separation of Church and State, since their religion does not want to have a Church-sponsored State, unless, I suppose, it be the masonic religion, but that would not have been possible at the founding of America because the protestants would not have had it.