mulls Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 So... do you believe that the Catholic church IS the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth....meaning that the church is perfect and unable to make mistakes? or do you believe that the Catholic church simply has the MOST truth, and is the MOST spiritually sound, more than any other denomination, since it is the church that Christ started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If you mean doctrine-wise, then yes, the Catholic Church has the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thus, it can't make mistakes in that area. However, individual clergy and lay people CAN and DO make mistakes regarding anything and everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Well God made one Church, and promised that it would be indestructible The Catholic church can be traced back to Jesus, we have writings that prove it, we got tons of historical quotes and documentation. Jesus said he would always be with his church and that it would not err because it would be infallible. There's only one church, that fits the description. Protestantism can't be the true Church because it is divided and was founded by Martin Luther who had mental problems and repeatedly contradicted the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. How then can all the churches which stemmed from Martin Luther all make up one true church?? When each of the 33,832 churches all contradict the scriptures and each other? "...every Christian is by faith so exalted above all things that, by virtue of a spiritual power, he is lord of all things without exception, so that nothing can do him any harm. As a matter of fact, all things are made subject to him and are compelled to serve him in obtaining salvation." (From the essay,'Freedom of a Christian,' 'Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 63.) Luther teaches that we don't need anyone between us, the community of believers, and our Savior. So he objects to ecclesiastical authority -- and the hierarchy which exercises it. God is with the entire congregation, he says, so why should we bother with a priest. Sounds great. Until you realize that this position echoes that of Moses' sister, the prophetess Miriam, who protests in Numbers Chapter 12, "Is it through Moses alone that the Lord speaks? Does he not speak through us also?" For her rebellion against the authority established by God, she contracts leprosy. Thanks to Moses' intercessory prayer, she is cleansed. And she is followed just a few chapters later by Korah, who incites the people against Moses and Aaron in the most disturbing words of all. They say, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the Lord is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the Lord's congregation?" Whereupon Korah and his followers were consumed by fire sent by the Lord. (Numbers 16.) Feels good to be Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 (edited) Jump out of the barque of Peter and get eaten' by the sharks Edited October 8, 2003 by Mc-Just† Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 (edited) The Catholic Church has the whole deposit of faith given by Christ through its apostolic Tradition and Sacred Scripture. And by the teaching authority given by Christ, it is free from error. But only Jesus is the whole truth. In a way the Church has this but only because it is the body of Christ. Edited October 8, 2003 by Cure of Ars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanmeyersmusic Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 i think that it's important to mention that the Church holds the fullness of truth revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 So... do you believe that the Catholic church IS the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth....meaning that the church is perfect and unable to make mistakes? or do you believe that the Catholic church simply has the MOST truth, and is the MOST spiritually sound, more than any other denomination, since it is the church that Christ started? mulls, I don't think you got quite a complete answer, but your question is kinda vague. What do you mean perfect. The Catholic Church is not perfect in every way. It can't be because humans are part of it. The Catholic Church is the perfect and complete vessel of God's revealation (Faith and Morals) because it is the Church that the Holy Spirit abides in forever. The Catholic Church doesn't have a monopoly on the Truth, but it is the only Church with Complete Truth. It's up to us how much of the Grace of Truth we decide to utilize. We can be Catholic and not learn anything or accept any of the Graces available in the Church and be in a worse position in our relationship with God than say a Baptist who seeks every opportunity to embace all the Truth that is in the Baptist Faith. It's a simple as the difference over the version of the Bibles. What's the point of having the complete Bible with all the Books (Catholic) if you never open it or read it. Whereas the Protestant who reads the partial Bible with desire to know God is much better off. Then again, the Catholic who does read the complete Bible is able to come to know God more completely. It's also my point why Catholic and non-Catholic Christians should discuss things more often, and in a friendly manner. Nobody contains a complete understanding of Scripture and God in our single pumpkin head, we need a field of pumpkin heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 The Catholic Church doesn't have a monopoly on the Truth, but it is the only Church with Complete Truth isn't this contradictory? i understand that you believe other churches can hold part of the truth....but unless it is Complete Truth, is it really truth at all? (ha, i'm helping you with your own argument. don't get used to it. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 isn't this contradictory? i understand that you believe other churches can hold part of the truth....but unless it is Complete Truth, is it really truth at all? The Catholic Church DOES hold complete truth, while other churches only hold incomplete truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 isn't this contradictory? i understand that you believe other churches can hold part of the truth....but unless it is Complete Truth, is it really truth at all? (ha, i'm helping you with your own argument. don't get used to it. ) Nope, it isn't contradictory and it isn't helping my argument because it isn't right. The Catholic Church has the Complete Truth. Some of the Truth is shared in other Faiths, including non-Christians. Heck, even atheists (if they were honest) would know some of the Truth. One has to consider the Spiritual AND Temporal nature of the Catholic Church. Membership and participation is at both levels, hence, the Body of Christ, Baptism by Desire, etc. Also explains how just temporal participation doesn't neccessarily mean spiritual participation, but it helps. Also explains how temporal rejection also can cause ultimate spiritual rejection. It's about striving the the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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