need help with athiest argument

[ironmonk]

[quote name='track2004' date='Nov 15 2004, 06:09 PM'] I'm not your bro.  I am totally a chick.

And what Freud said has some validity, not much, but some.  I am less apt to commit crimes not because I am afraid of the 'law', but because I think it will offend God. 

I'm a girl.  I need a girlier icon or something.... [/quote]
It was the fight club quote that made me think bro, sis.

I was going to check your profile, then saw the quote and thought "dude"


What part of IN are you in? I'm from Evansville and also lived in Columbus IN.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[Mary's Knight, La]

removed because i accidentally pressed the wrong button.

Edited November 15, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[Mary's Knight, La]

[quote]Humans created time. Without No HUMANS there would be no time. Time is numbers we put according to the place of the sun on the earth. Nothing more.[/quote]

without humans there very well might not be numbers but the changes in time represented by numbers would still happen otherwise there was no time before the first human and thus no time for humans to come from anything. the measurement of time is the measurement of change which happens whether anyone observes it or not.

[quote] God couln't have been in this universe without the universe being here first. And the whole question about there being nothing before the creation of the earth is a totally different question. [/quote]

No catholic i know claims God is inside the universe. rather we all claim the opposite God created the universe from the outside. as for it not making sense for God to create something from nothing, if something is created there must be a "before something is created" if there is no something first then there is nothing except God. That's why we [i]can[/i] say: There was God that's it. Infinite power should have no problems with creating something out of nothing as a matter of fact it requires infinite power because you're talking about infinite change between nothing and something.

[quote]
I believe the earth was created with either the big bang or some other theory I forgot. They make more sense and are within the realm of reality.[/quote]

your theories are more within the realm of [i]physics[/i] and they are just that theories completely incapable of being proven or disproven with physics. But how likely is it that some lump of matter/energy that had previously not decided to blow up, spontaneously decides "oh i'll explode and make a universe today"? To the best of my understanding of the laws of physics it's impossible for this to happen as it would require something previously stable to destabilize [b]without first changing[/b] or is it more likely that a force outside of that lump acted upon it to cause the creation of the universe? That force couldn't be a part of the universe because the universe is completely contained in the lump. All other theories outside of God will still require change in a stabilized system to occur without cause. [i]and you think our beliefs come solely from faith? You believe in an impossible event to occur without cause[/i]

[quote]You're right there is a risk about me not believing in God. And well too bad. It doesn't affect my life as it is now. I'm not sad at all neither do I feel empty. I'm perfectly happy and my life is great. [/quote]

frankly it's not your life [i]now[/i] that we're concerned about except in how it affects your life after death.

[quote]If there is a God he isn't judging [b]nor does he wants us to shape our life the way he wants us too.[/b] [/quote]

Could you actually type that with a straight face? He doesn't want us to do what He wants us to do. if you simplify that down you're saying the same thing as saying water isn't water.

[quote]To me God is more symbolic than real.[/quote] He'll be real enough when you meet Him

[quote]God in my opinion is some kind of bond that keeps us humans "humans" [/quote] so we define ourselves by something we're not... Hmmm i was right years ago when I said we're all insane...

[Guest Aluigi]

claiming we invented time because we invented a way of measuring it is as absurd as saying we invented space because we invented rulers and yard sticks! :nanny:

[reelguy227]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 12:07 AM']

I don't ask where the universe came from. It was here. That's it. God on the other hand did NOT create the universe. [/quote]


What I dont get with your arguments is that first of all ,How do you know for sure that God didnt create the Universe ,where you here when it was created ?

And secondly, as for the secularist big bang theory ,how exactly did the big bang happen ? Did the stars just happen to magically create themselves and molecules and atoms just appeared out of no where? Come on ,it makes absolutely no sense . The only answer is the Case for a Creator to create all that we see around us ,except for man made things that is .

I rest my case.

God Bless,

Ricky.

Edited November 16, 2004 by reelguy227

[SirMyztiq]

If there is one man that has discredited the Church forever it would be Thomas Paine. I know it's out of topic but I just got done reading "common sense"

Critical think this...Critical think that...give it up dude.

I "critical think" but if you want to call research "critical thinking" then go ahead. I doubt you just used "critical thinking" to say any of the stuff you did.

HUMANS did create time. To explain better. We created the concept of time. Nothing more. Without humans the concept of time wouldn't exist. Time is almost connected with the ability to change or changing. That is why many scientist believe that if we ever reach Absolute Zero everything will stop because at that instant time is "frozen" on whatever it is they froze and will cause a chain reaction and would cause other things to "freeze" because that would be a hole in the continium(sp) of time. For example a black hole. A black hole's singularity is said to be the "end of time" because everything is squeezed almost to nothing. Time is not a constant there.


I argue in favor of REALITY. I don't need some fantasy story about some powerful being creating this place just for the heck of it. For everything there is an explanation and even though we can't prove those theories such as the big bang then we can only analyze and speculate from what we know.

We know that the moon was created when it hit the earth causing the tilt on the earth and then it was trapped under the earths gravitational pull. We know the sun was created from the big bang and that it pretty much arranged the way the planets are aligned. We know that earth is placed on a perfect place for life to begin due to the many asteriods hitting the earth, melting and allowing water to stay here in earth. And due to the distance from the sun water was perserved and other planets the water either froze or evaporated away.

The big bang as many other theories are largely based on chances and occurence. We know, or think we do, that the universe is infinitely large.

Physics is away to actually prove events and occurences in the real of chance and reality. There is proof that is provided and then we go from there.

The only proof of a God was a man made book that people claim to be the word of God.

Without humans there would be no God. B/c only to humans do Gods exist. So in essence if God did create us he essentially created the concept of his own existence.

The universe is who knows how many years old. That alone supports the "magically created" molecules and particles. They were here way before this happened. And due to the extreme size of this universe it's impossible to think that the creation of this universe is too random. It's not. Things like these happen all the time.

Edited November 16, 2004 by SirMyztiq

[louisville]

The big bang as many other theories are largely based on chances and occurence?

"If the initial explosion of the big bang had differed in strength by as little as 1 part in 10 raised to the 60th power, the universe would have either quickly collapsed back on itself, or expanded too rapidly for stars to form. In either case, life would be impossible. (an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 60th power can be compared to fireing a bullet at a one-inch target on the other side of the observable universe, twenty billion light years away, and hitting the target.)

Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little at 5%, life would be impossible.

Calculations indicate that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 10 raised to the 40th power, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.

If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons and all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would be impossible.

If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible for a variety of reasons.

Imaginative, one could thing of each instance of fine-tuning as a radio dial: unless all the dials are set exactly right, life would be impossible. Or, one could think of the values of the initial conditions of the universe and the fundamental parameters of physics as coordinates on a dart board that fills the whole galaxy, and the conditions necessary for life to exist as a small one-foot wide target: unless the dart hit the target, life would be impossible. The fact that the dials are perfectly set, or the dart has hit the target, strongly suggests that someone set the dials or aimed the dart, for it seems enormously improbably that such a coincidence could have happened by chance."

-Robin Collins (im not robin collins (i did not make up them calculations))

[louisville]

time is a measure of sequince. The fact the one thing happens after another thing means that thier is time. Therefore, time is not a human concept, it is a reality that we observe and call time.

Outside of time, everything has happened, is happening, and will happen at the same time. "a thousand years in your eyes (God's) are merely a yesterday." psalm 90

[ironmonk]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 09:54 PM'] HUMANS did create time. To explain better. We created the concept of time. Nothing more. Without humans the concept of time wouldn't exist [/quote]



:rotfl:


The "logic" that you are applying would mean that...
we created gravity
we created electricity
we created fire
etc...

No bro... we did not create the concept of time. Time was already here before we were. We came up with a way to measure it... nothing more.

A wise man will admit when he's wrong instead of building strawmen to defend the fallicy.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Crusader_4]

Perhaps before you explain a theory such as the Big Bang as the creation of the universe one should realize that this concept and theory was devolped and introudced by a Catholic Priest. Funny how that stuff works eh?

[Mary's Knight, La]

ok one thing at a time:

if God didn't create the universe where did it come from?

If you believe in big bang then what caused the singularity or whatever it was to explode when it previously didn't?

if you believe everything was already the way it was, what happened to suddenly set things in motion?

either way you must explain change in a system that was not inclined to change.

a thing must exist before it can be set in motion because it must be set in motion by another thing which must have been set in motion it self ... wash, rinse, and repeat... until you get to something which must have been set in motion by something that had motion of it's own. which is physically impossible.

otherwise please explain motion.

peace out

[White Knight]

[quote name='louisville' date='Nov 14 2004, 02:46 PM'] I was having a discussion with an athiest friend yesterday. He made one comment that I didn't exactly know how to answer. So I need some help.

He said that people rationalize to things that they want to believe and in this way, we make up the existance of God because we believers want to believe in God.

Thanks for the help. [/quote]
Its a odd counter, that your conversation communicator has come up with, yet its highly flawed indeed.... Use his own Science if he is agureing science against him, use whatever he says about science disproving God, against him, and convience him how our World is put together by Mass, Billion & Trillions of Cells and Atoms and Neutrons, etc etc, use that if you want too. [b]Also tell him that it is all impossible for our existance to even occured without some sort of designer (creator/ God). Convience him of that, and youve pretty much destroyed his agurment.[/b]

[SirMyztiq]

Without humans there wouldn't be a concept of time.
Regardless if there is still time. Time exist because we know it's there.

Same can apply to God.
If we didn't exist to believe there is a God. God wouldn't exist.
But since we are here and some believe in God. He exist. Regardless if he really does or not. God is a creation of man. Just like time.

Time exist only when there is movement. Because if you take notice everything moves according to a certain time or according to time in general. If suddenly a particle, or a group of particles stops moving. Time would not affect it because there is no change within the particles. Time is also measured in the speed of light. That's why many believe that possibly traveling faster than the speed of light would move faster than time and essentially move backward.

"Time it is an essential component of the physical laws of the universe. Without a clearly defined direction of time, the fundamental concepts of motion, gravity, electricity, nuclear and chemical interactions, entropy, and so on, will no longer operate in the ways we observe."

"We made time according to the position of the moon around earth, and earth around the sun."

Time is not a constant in the universe. So essentially there is no "time" there is just change.

"People say to me, god made earth and i ask who made god. They say god has always been around. So surely he doesn't live in time. Time cannot exist for him (or indeed wherever he comes from).... Are we just inside a game of god??? "

[url="http://com4.runboard.com/bfarfrontiers.forum13"]http://com4.runboard.com/bfarfrontiers.forum13[/url]

^^^

Nobody created the universe. Where did those stars billions of lightyears away come from? What do they look like? What is on them? Who knows. What set it off?

[url="http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm"]http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm[/url]

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.

[God Conquers]

As Charles de Foucault said in his french accent:

"In order for there to be a big bang, there had to have been a big banger!"

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 15 2004, 09:31 AM'] Time is the what it takes for the earth to spin one 360 degree rotation. Time is also a product of the result of the earth rotating around the sun. [/quote]
I don't know if this will add anything to the debate or not--I have not been following this thread. This is for ironmonk:

Actually, by the heliocentric theory (which is far from proven, and until either is I will err on the side of geocentrism, which has existed for a longer period of time and is at least taught fallibly by the Church), a 360 degree revolution of the earth is not "time". That is one day (23 hrs 59 mins 30 so seconds). One year is the rotation of the earth completely around the sun. As I said, though, I don't subscribe to a heliocentric theory.

Time by definition is: a nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

What you defined first is actually one way of measuring time. A year is simply the measure of time. A day is the measure of time. The movements of the heavenly bodies are used to help us measure time. They are not themselves time.