need help with athiest argument

[louisville]

I was having a discussion with an athiest friend yesterday. He made one comment that I didn't exactly know how to answer. So I need some help.

He said that people rationalize to things that they want to believe and in this way, we make up the existance of God because we believers want to believe in God.

Thanks for the help.

[voiciblanche]

If you make up the existance of God because you want to believe in God...

Then the athiest denies His Existance because he wants not to believe in God.


-shrugg- Seems like a weak argument to me. It could apply to anything.

[Oik]

That's so freud.

Counter with "for every desire human beings have, there is a corresponding reality."

So, since human beings desire God, then that desire comes from the reality that God already exists. A desire can not exist if the thing desired did not already exist.

[louisville]

yes but what about disordered desires- sin.

humans can make themselves believe that sinful things are right. For example, liberals change thier laws or beliefs when new disires are presented to them like when abortion or stem cell possiblilities are presented they form thier beliefs to what will allow them to take advantage them.

So, how do we distinguish rationalization for a desire for sin (or untruth) from rationalization for a desire for God?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='louisville' date='Nov 14 2004, 04:46 PM'] I was having a discussion with an athiest friend yesterday. He made one comment that I didn't exactly know how to answer. So I need some help.

He said that people rationalize to things that they want to believe and in this way, we make up the existance of God because we believers want to believe in God.

Thanks for the help. [/quote]
Bro...

Please read this...

[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html[/url]

God Bless,
ironmonk

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='louisville' date='Nov 14 2004, 02:46 PM'] I was having a discussion with an athiest friend yesterday. He made one comment that I didn't exactly know how to answer. So I need some help.

He said that people rationalize to things that they want to believe and in this way, we make up the existance of God because we believers want to believe in God.

Thanks for the help. [/quote]
Your friends seems awfully smart.

[noncatholicname]

What your atheist friend didn't notice is that, since he has reasoned that people rationalize that there is a God, then God has revealed himself to this atheist already because your atheist friend is attempting to rationalize that there is no God at all.

In other word, he desires there to be no God, so he rationalizes that there is no God. Which is exactly what Paul said men do.

Now, go clobber this guy with the gospel.

[SirMyztiq]

Or...

God was created and widely accepted because people are thinkers(some) and we need answers to life's most precious questions.

Why are we here?
How did we come to be?
Why do people do what they do?

Who answers all these questions!?

God.

Not only the Christian God. Because as we all know or refuse to acknowledge is that there were many other Gods created before the Christian God. Such as the Hindu God of...wait they have multiple Gods. And many of their stories seem to match with many of the Christian stories.

Religion then has morphed, especially Christianity to a more diverse group. The original Church was the Catholic church and was established in Europe. Some guy didn't like what was going on with the corruption and all and decided to post some thoughts on a church door. Then we have the protestants!

But thats another story...

Who created us?
I highly doubt that this world came out of nothing. How is that possible? How is something that apperantly is infinite years old just out of nowhere decide to create us?

and of course the real ball kicker statement.

Dinasaurs shared the earth with humans.

LOL.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 12:08 AM'] Or...

God was created and widely accepted because people are thinkers(some) and we need answers to life's most precious questions.

Why are we here?
How did we come to be?
Why do people do what they do?

Who answers all these questions!?

God.

Not only the Christian God. Because as we all know or refuse to acknowledge is that there were many other Gods created before the Christian God. Such as the Hindu God of...wait they have multiple Gods. And many of their stories seem to match with many of the Christian stories.

Religion then has morphed, especially Christianity to a more diverse group. The original Church was the Catholic church and was established in Europe. Some guy didn't like what was going on with the corruption and all and decided to post some thoughts on a church door. Then we have the protestants!

But thats another story...

Who created us?
I highly doubt that this world came out of nothing. How is that possible? How is something that apperantly is infinite years old just out of nowhere decide to create us?

and of course the real ball kicker statement.

Dinasaurs shared the earth with humans.

LOL. [/quote]
[quote]Religion then has morphed, especially Christianity to a more diverse group. The original Church was the Catholic church and was established in Europe. Some guy didn't like what was going on with the corruption and all and decided to post some thoughts on a church door. Then we have the protestants![/quote]

The list you refer to was called Luther's 95 Thesis. The 95 Thesis was a bunch of lies and half truths. If people had the internet back then, could read, and actually doubled checked what he wrote, there would not be protestantism.

BTW... The Catholic Church is still here. The Catholic Chuch is the new covenant between God and man, the old covenant was the Jewish faith. Which the worship of the Almighty God is the oldest known to man.

From an agnostic point of view, if there was a God, man would know Him from the beginning. That leaves us with two choices Catholicism or Hinduism (because some say this is the oldest) if there is a God. Hinduism lacks something that Catholicism has an abundance of... Miracles... Miracles that anti-believers have become believers over. Things that just don't happen without divine intervention.

Please go to the link that I posted in my above post. You could learn a lot from Pascal's Wager. Do some study... if for any reason to be able to show me that I am wrong so that I can be right. I am a lover of Truth. I do not blindly follow the Church... I have always questioned the Church teachings... I don't just question, I seek out an answer. There is always an answer if you know where to look.

Anyways... there is nothing bad in the teaching of the Church... it is summed up in treat people the way you want to be treated.


[quote]Who created us?
I highly doubt that this world came out of nothing. How is that possible? How is something that apperantly is infinite years old just out of nowhere decide to create us? [/quote]


Your logic here cannot stand. If this world came out of something, then where did that something come from... where did that something come from that the world was created out of... and so on... if there has always been something, then where did it come from? How could anything exist given your logic that you use in this statement? Answer, it can't... therefore we are nothing and don't exist, but you think you do... so something had to come from nothing... but how can that be? Something had to make something from nothing... or something from something... If something has always been... then what is "always"? How can always be because something had to have a beginning somewhere, where was that and what was that?

Your logic falls into an endless circle of no answers. But there is one simple answer that is beyond any human reasoning and is the only logical answer... God.

So the question is not "is there a God?", the question is "Who is right about God?".

[quote]and of course the real ball kicker statement.

Dinasaurs shared the earth with humans.[/quote]

Again, not a fallacy of logic. We don't say this. Maybe, maybe not... more than likely not, but we have no way of knowing for certain because too much has happened over the past thousands of years with tecktonic shifting and all... all the remains of humans that date back that far could be below the bottom of the ocean for all we know. Just because we haven't found something to show it doesn't mean it didn't happen.... if you haven't noticed, there are billions of tons of soil above and under water that have not been examined.


A little critical thinking will take you a long way in your search for truth... that is if you care about truth.

I feel sorry for you... to believe that you will go to nothing when you die, that would mean that nothing you do matters. Are you willing to risk being wrong over something that doesn't matter?

If you lived as a Christian and there is no God, then you loose nothing because if there is no God then life is meaningless anyway because it will be like you never existed. If you live as a Christian and there is a God, you gain eternity.

If you live as an anti-Christian doing whatever you want and die and there is no God, you loose nothing and everything is still meaningless.

If you live as an anti-Christian doing whatever you want and die and there is a God, you could go to hell.


Do you know for certain... no.

Do I know for certain that there is a God. Yes. Go to the link above and study. Proof is everywhere if you know what questions to ask and where to look for answers. Critical thinking will help you.


Instead of attacking our faith, why not ask why we believe so strongly... you might learn.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[louisville]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 14 2004, 10:08 PM']
Who created us?
I highly doubt that this world came out of nothing. How is that possible? How is something that apperantly is infinite years old just out of nowhere decide to create us?

[/quote]
God didn't come out of nowhere because there wasn't nowhere before God created nowhere. God created nothingness and then put matter and space into the nothingness.
God could not have been created because thier was no time until God made time, therefore thier could not have been time before God. We have a tendancy to put everything in a sequence because we cannot comprehend anything any other way. The very word "created" implies that it happened in the past but thier is no time outside of this rhelm- see our language cannot even comprehend how God could have been "created". God is the unmoved mover and the uncaused cause. Thier is no other way. This is how our God given reason brings us to truth.

[SirMyztiq]

[quote name='louisville' date='Nov 14 2004, 11:21 PM'] God didn't come out of nowhere because there wasn't nowhere before God created nowhere.  God created nothingness and then put matter and space into the nothingness. 
God could not have been created because thier was no time until God made time, therefore thier could not have been time before God.  We have a tendancy to put everything in a sequence because we cannot comprehend anything any other way.  The very word "created" implies that it happened in the past but thier is no time outside of this rhelm- see our language cannot even comprehend how God could have been "created".  God is the unmoved mover and the uncaused cause.  Thier is no other way.  This is how our God given reason brings us to truth. [/quote]
Humans created time. Without No HUMANS there would be no time. Time is numbers we put according to the place of the sun on the earth. Nothing more.

I don't ask where the universe came from. It was here. That's it. God on the other hand did NOT create the universe. Don't try to switch it up on me by saying something like "God was here. That's it" because that doesn't deal with the creating of the universe. God couln't have been in this universe without the universe being here first. And the whole question about there being nothing before the creation of the earth is a totally different question.

I believe the earth was created with either the big bang or some other theory I forgot. They make more sense and are within the realm of reality.

Lousville. "Nowhere" was also created by our human perceptive. In order to be a "nowhere" and a "nothing" there must be a "somewhere" and a "something"

Those can happen without God creating them.

The earth was created then we were created in a hot steam pool of water among other things.

Iron. Stop with the critical thinking stuff. I think critically all the time. As my girlfriend. We argue about this stuff all the time! I win of course.

You're right there is a risk about me not believing in God. And well too bad. It doesn't affect my life as it is now. I'm not sad at all neither do I feel empty. I'm perfectly happy and my life is great.

Well let me clear that up. I don't believe in the Christian God. I'm a Deist remember? Like I've said before. Im a Deist on the verge of agnostic. If there is a God he isn't judging nor does he wants us to shape our life the way he wants us too. God in my opinion is some kind of bond that keeps us humans "humans" To me God is more symbolic than real.

Edited November 15, 2004 by SirMyztiq

[ironmonk]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 15 2004, 02:07 AM'] Humans created time. Without No HUMANS there would be no time. [/quote]

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.

Humans did not create time. Humans created the clock. A clock measures time. Time is not the same thing as a clock. Maybe someone failed to tell you this or maybe you had a hard time understanding it. Just know that we will be happy to help you understand those things that you find difficult.

Time is the what it takes for the earth to spin one 360 degree rotation. Time is also a product of the result of the earth rotating around the sun.

Obviously you haven't been taught some simple scientific facts... so it looks like we all are going to have to help you with critical thinking and logic.



[quote]I believe the earth was created with either the big bang or some other theory I forgot. [/quote]

Why argue something that you are unsure of?

The big bang theory is totally in line with Catholic teaching. Many Catholics believe it.

"or some other theory I forget".... how is that critical thinking?

Critical thinking with a little logic can help you avoid making such fatal mistakes in your arguement.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited November 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[track2004]

Humans did create time inasmuch as it is not actually a demension. It doesn't exist with out explicit memory and only adult humans are believed to have that type of memory (memory for specific events). So if going by memory, humans totally made time up to explain why I remember something that happened last week. In reality last week doesn't exist, but because I remember it it does to me, and presumably to all of you. Most psychologists believe that lower animals don't realize that there was a last week (this is also evident in kids under 4 ish) and are only concerned with the here and now because that's all they know exists.

Freud said, "The true believer is in a high degree protected against the danger of certain neurotic afflictions; by accepting the universal neurosis he is spared the task of forming a personal neurosis." That is how he viewed religion. I can't say it's not an unfounded belief, but then again my belief isn't unfounded either.

Personally I kind of think that in a way everyone's belief is Pascal's Wager: "'God is, or He is not.' But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up... Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose... But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is... If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is." I don't know that there is any strong reasoning behind my belief more than I know it's a part of my faith. It makes sense anyway, if eternity is the wager.

Edited November 15, 2004 by track2004

[ironmonk]

[quote name='track2004' date='Nov 15 2004, 03:14 PM'] Humans did create time inasmuch as it is not actually a demension. It doesn't exist with out explicit memory and only adult humans are believed to have that type of memory (memory for specific events). So if going by memory, humans totally made time up to explain why I remember something that happened last week. In reality last week doesn't exist, but because I remember it it does to me, and presumably to all of you. Most psychologists believe that lower animals don't realize that there was a last week (this is also evident in kids under 4 ish) and are only concerned with the here and now because that's all they know exists. [/quote]
Bro...

Humans did not invent time.

Time is the rotation of the earth around the sun.

Humans do not need to exist for time to exist.

If there are no humans, and a metor hits the earth on the 1st rotation of the planet, then after 3 rotations of the planet did the metor still hit the earth ? Yes, the metor hit the earth on the first rotation.

Time does not need humans for it to exist.

Before the clock was made, time was kept by the positions of the planets... the ignorant mistaked the tracking of time for some prophesy of telling the future.... but that's another story.


[quote]Freud said, "The true believer is in a high degree protected against the danger of certain neurotic afflictions; by accepting the universal neurosis he is spared the task of forming a personal neurosis." That is how he viewed religion. I can't say it's not an unfounded belief, but then again my belief isn't unfounded either. [/quote]

Freud wasn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. The man never took notes and never studied children.... then based all his findings on children... totally illogical.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[track2004]

I'm not your bro. I am totally a chick.

And what Freud said has some validity, not much, but some. I am less apt to commit crimes not because I am afraid of the 'law', but because I think it will offend God.

I'm a girl. I need a girlier icon or something....