Having the 'haves' help the 'have-nots'

[ironmonk]

How can we properly help the haves help the have nots?

Do we just tax them heavy and give the money to the have nots?

What happens when we tax the "haves" heavy?

We must first establish a "have". Some set this magical line at people who make over $200,000 per year... So who are the typical people who make over 200k? They are small business owners. The majority of small businesses in America file their business taxes along with their personal taxes, by doing this, it puts them in the greater tax bracket. What happens when we tax them heavy? They cut jobs or they move their business to a place that they won't get taxed heavy.

Does that help the have nots? No, it creates more have nots.


What happens when we give the "haves" tax cuts?
They expand their businesses. They hire people. They invest their money in other companies... creating more jobs.


I work in an industry that services small and medium size businesses. I hear and see what happens when they are taxed heavy... and I see and hear what happens when they get tax breaks. This is not theory, it is fact.. it is the way things happen.


Many political ads claim that the republican party is "out for the rich". They "help the rich"... They do help the rich, but the reason behind helping the rich is so that the rich can help create jobs for the poor... the reason is not what the political ads of the past 30 years want you to believe.

America has a strong economy when people have jobs, not when people become dependant on handouts.

A close friend of mine's mother went through a divorce... didn't have an education... what did she do? She got welfare, and raised her kids, and went to school... she bettered herself... They were on welfare for three years to help them on their feet... now she makes a six figure salary because of her hard work.

Walfare is and should be a crutch to help people back on their feet, not a way of life. That is what the Republican Party believes.... and it is totally in line with Catholic Teaching... Whereas creating dependancy on welfare is against Catholic teaching.




REF:
[b]2 Thess. 3:10 [/b]
In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that [u][b]if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat[/b][/u].

[url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/bishopStatement.html"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/b...pStatement.html[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

Amen. In the time I spent as a cashier in two different stores, I learned about who uses the system as a genuine tool and those who took advantage. When someone walked into the store with gold chains, a cell phone and a nice car and took $100 out their welfare card, something is wrong.

However when a young family comes in with their meals budgeted for the week and they are buying non-brand name healthy foods, diapers, milk, juices, and so on, I am more than happy to know my tax dollars are going to help them. And I realize that I too could some day need such a system if we ran into really bad luck. People should get a chance, and if they abuse the system should be thrown out of it.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 14 2004, 03:20 PM'] Amen. In the time I spent as a cashier in two different stores, I learned about who uses the system as a genuine tool and those who took advantage. When someone walked into the store with gold chains, a cell phone and a nice car and took $100 out their welfare card, something is wrong.

However when a young family comes in with their meals budgeted for the week and they are buying non-brand name healthy foods, diapers, milk, juices, and so on, I am more than happy to know my tax dollars are going to help them. And I realize that I too could some day need such a system if we ran into really bad luck. People should get a chance, and if they abuse the system should be thrown out of it. [/quote]
Ditto!

I also worked as a cashier. It was at a Publix on the poor side of town. One of the many examples that I've witnessed was that I had a woman pay for her things with foodstamps, she had a mink, tons of gold, and drove a Jag.

Another problem that was happening in my area was that drug addicts would sell their foodstamps for 50 cents to the dollar.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Nicademus]

honestly you can't help those that don't want to help themselves.

[cmotherofpirl]

In Pennsylvania you can be on welfare 5 years total, and job training is required.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 14 2004, 10:40 PM'] In Pennsylvania you can be on welfare 5 years total, and job training is required. [/quote]
That is awesome. It would be great if it was like that everywhere... that is that job training is required.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Quietfire]

Excellent post.
Welfare should be there to help one back on their feet, not to allow them to sit on their bum.

Something is wrong when its easier to be on welfare than to get a job.


Pax

[Good Friday]

[quote name='ironmonk']Many political ads claim that the republican party is "out for the rich". They "help the rich"... They do help the rich, but the reason behind helping the rich is so that the rich can help create jobs for the poor... the reason is not what the political ads of the past 30 years want you to believe.

America has a strong economy when people have jobs, not when people become dependant on handouts.[/quote]
Ironmonk, it's not that I disagree with the basic element of what you're saying. So please, don't come back and tell me that I don't believe Church teaching, I'd like to have a charitable discussion about this, all right? I agree that welfare should not be a permanent system that those who are really good at manipulation can milk for their whole lives. The Church teaches and has always taught that it is in man's best interest to work, that God desires for man to work, and thus I do believe that people should work. I've also become increasingly fed up with the welfare system in my area, especially the housing system. As some of you know, my house was destroyed by a flood a couple of months ago as a result of Hurricanes Frances and Ivan (which were tropical depressions by the time they got here). Since then, my family has been staying with my grandfather in his one floor modular home, but this is extremely temporary (or at least it's supposed to be) and we've been trying to get the government to help us with temporary housing.

Time and time again, the answer we get boils down to that because I am 20-years-old and able-bodied, despite the fact that I have no college education and no skills training, I should be able to provide housing for my family. Furthermore, and this is what kills me, because I do not have a child out of wedlock living with me, I cannot get temporary housing. Now, don't get me wrong: I would much rather house young, unwed mothers with my tax dollars than throw them out on the street, and I would certainly rather house them than have them go get abortions (which, ironically, would also probably be paid for with my tax dollars). But I think it's reached a level of ridiculousness. At this point, if a young girl has a child out of wedlock, she is rewarded -- the government does nothing to deter her, and so she often has more children out of wedlock to continue getting the government to pay for her. What makes me even more mad is that the government now also pays for the father of her baby more often than not, even though they're not married and even though he isn't paying for his child. What sickens me is that if they were to get married, they would lose some of those benefits, and if he did pay for his child, the government would want to help them even less.

Basically, I feel that the government welfare system currently rewards teenage and young adult fornication and punishes those who choose abstinence and chastity. After all, I have two cousins who have children out of wedlock who have gotten HUD vouchers and whose college educations are being completely paid for by the government -- and because I don't have children out of wedlock, the government will not help me with housing and they will not help me with my education. The amazing thing to me is that I don't expect the government to help me permanently, nor do I expect them to pay my way. I want [b]help[/b] with my education, I don't want them to pay for it; I've expressed my willingness to do work-study and even to get a job on the side to help pay for it, and I'm open to loans even though they will accumulate interest and I'll be paying them back until I'm dead. The amazing thing to me is that I don't expect the government to house me forever -- only temporarily until we can get on our feet after this natural disaster destroyed our home. But my cousins, on the other hand, expect the government's support for them forever. And what irritates me is that they will get it, and I will not even get the temporary and minimal assistance that I'm asking for. But when I do get my minimum wage jobs, which is all I can get without education or training, the government will be sure to take out plenty in taxes to pay for my two cousins who are having children just so they can milk the government for all it's worth -- essentially, so they can milk me for all I'm worth. And I end up fulfilling the role with my tax dollars that should be fulfilled by the fathers of their babies. I don't see why, when I choose chastity, I should be forced to pay for the children and the girlfriends of young men who didn't choose chastity. Shouldn't they have to pay for their children and girlfriends themselves? They made their beds, and now I have to lie in it?

So, let's just say I am in no way thrilled with our welfare system.

My concern is that if there's not some system in place, people who really need it won't have anywhere to turn. And my concern is that the Republicans will so drastically reduce the welfare system that it becomes ineffective for everyone. It already doesn't work for me, so my primary concern is for young, unwed mothers who aren't trying to milk the system but who do need temporary help now that they made the mistake of having premarital sex and the wonderful blessing of a child resulted. I'm afraid that these young mothers will not get help, or will have much trouble getting help, which will lead more of them to get abortions and/or which will lead the ones who don't choose abortions out into the streets with drugs, prostitution, or God knows what else.

A second concern is about what you wrote about tax cuts and jobs. I agree with the basic idea that tax cuts for the wealthy can be good for the economy because the wealthy, in turn, provide the jobs. The problem, however, is that often these jobs are for minimum wage or not much more, and they often have limited benefits, if any. This is a problem for people who can't get anything else because of lack of education or training, which is not always their fault. It's especially a problem for people who have families. How do you feed your family on $5.15 an hour? And what do you do when your kid gets the measles and you don't have any health insurance? I think it's a problem that the wealthy are gettin the tax cuts but they're not providing better jobs -- and Americans not only need jobs, they need better jobs that can meet the cost of living. Too many Americans are living at poverty level. And too many children in this country are malnourished. In fact, when any child in the richest nation in the world is malnourished, that's too many. Because there isn't any reason for it.

So, I guess my question for you is this: What do you propose for people who fall through the cracks of the Republican plan? What happens to the young, unwed mother who's chosen life if she can't get some kind of help to house and feed herself and her baby? And what happens to the young father and mother, maybe married or maybe not, who can't get anything better than jobs at Wal-Mart or Convenient when they're having to decide who's going to eat well on any given night of the week, which bills are and are not going to get paid, and what they're going to do when their child breaks an arm? I honestly believe that Republicans care about these people and want to do something for them, I'm no longer under the delusion that Republicans just don't care, but I do want to know what the plan is for these people. Because these people do exist. And, sans the children, I am one of them. It's been impossible for me thus far to get higher education, and because of that it's so far been impossible for me to get a job that pays much higher than the minimum wage or provides benefits. Not to sound selfish, but what do Republicans say I'm supposed to do? And, much more importantly, what do they say to the young married mother and father who are having trouble feeding their children? Because they exist, I've met them; and there have to be provisions for them. We can't just leave their children hungry and their bank accounts constantly empty.

Anyway, I hope I've managed to clearly and civilly get my concern across and I hope you'll be able to do the same with your answer.

[Quietfire]

Excellent post GF. I agree with everything you said. Yet I know, as well as you, that there is no easy solution to the problem.

While there will always be people who are able to twist the system to suit their needs and smell of elderberries out of it all that they wish, there will be those bumped out of it.

It's a catch 22. And there is no right or wrong answer.
No only do I agree that those having children out of wedlock are 'rewarded' but they are also given the wrong message over and over.

If welfare is stopped, people will starve, be out of a home, have no means of medical assistance.
But to continue on as we have we continue to create a dependency for them.
And those who truly need it, those who are denied this 'temporary' assistance can not get it because they are able to work.
Catch 22.

We weaned ourselves into this mess. We MUST wean ourselves out of it.
It isnt going to happen overnight, and we wont make everyone happy. But welfare should not be a program for permanent dependency. And that is the message that is being sent to people who choose to have children and not work.

We have created a monster and now the monster controls us.

We view birth control as a means of unwanted pregnacy. While this seemed good on the surface in the beginning, it led to sex outside of marriage in a proportion that grew too big for its original intention.(which was as above-controlling unwanted pregnancy) It allowed people the opportunity to have sex outside of marriage without the consequences of pregnancy. Teen sex rose, as well as extra maritial affairs. But life finds a way....

Abortion becomes legal, as a means to end unwanted pregnancies. While this seemed good on the surface in the beginning, it has grown to monsterous proportions.
Since many choose not to use birth control, can not afford it, forget to take it, whatever their reasons, then abortion becomes the second means of birth control.

Have sex, get pregnant, dont want it? have an abortion.
Catch 22.
Then if you choose to have the child, there's welfare. Think about all this for a moment. We have created a monsterous roller coaster that has no end.

This is a vicious cycle and unfortunately, our leaders are not going to find any easy answers because they have continued to create programs of dependancy, or pass laws that create dependancy.

The welfare system is no different.
I sympathise with you GF. I know very well what you are going through, because I was there once myself. It was very degrading to hear that I was turned down for assistance because I had NO dependants, owned a car, and had an apartment that had been paid for in rent ahead of time. I had lost my job which didnt overly concern me, since I had taken my severance and paid my rent up (almost a year and a half) I was receiving unemployment, but finding a job was tough with no college education. Then I got sick. I then got sicker and was hospitalized on and off for four months. I came close to death on more than one occasion but never knew it then. My doctor was adament about me applying for assistance since I was facing astronimical bills. With todays inflation rate my bill today for that experience would be somewhere around $100,000.00 or more. (a decent college education worth?)
If not more than that.
I had to fight for it, and I was in no mood to fight. I eventually got it, my bills were paid (medical only) and I vowed to never ask the state for assistance again. (May God hear my prayer on that one-I hope I never have to...really)
I was degraded, I was laughed at (not kidding here) and I was on public assistance for a total of 3 months. They wanted my car, my bank account, and any other item of value. They wanted to leave me with nothing which would have made me dependant on them.
I fought, and eventually I got the assistance I needed....as opposed to the assistance they wanted me to have.

I know you are thinking "Yeah, but you got the help you needed and I cant get ANY help". The truth is, I had to lie, beg, lie, cry, lie, degrade myself, and lie to get it. Thats a whole lotta lying, and I had no choice. The alternative was much worse. Again, I was on public assistance for 3 months, I tore the card up right after that, even though the state continued to keep me on their roles for longer. I got a job with benefits-not the best but it was better than being dependant on the state- and pulled myself back up. So I was again without benefits for over a year until my new job benefits kicked in. But I had been given a green light by my doctor and I tore the card up.
My doctor, on the other hand, had prepared two bills for me. One for the state, if I got assistance, with the actual cost...and one for me if I got turned down. The difference in the bills....about $14,500.00. The above price for the hospital cost was ONLY the hospital cost. That 100K didnt include any outside hospital costs, like my doctor, the anestishia(sp?) outside prescriptions (that was a huge OUCH!)the emergency room, the ER doctors, etc.
Oh yeah, the bills started to pour in and I was drowning.

I could only guess at todays inflation rate for the total cost compared to then, but I would be safe in assuming it somewhere around 150K easy. Most of it being the hospital cost alone.

I could have stayed on the system you know. Once youre on it(or in it) its easy to stay in it. I didnt view it as such though. To me public assistance is supposed to be temporary. So I viewed it as such. My friends thought I was nuts, these were the same friends who helped me get appoved for it in the first place, since they were all on it and knew how to manipulate it. Some of them had good jobs but still claimed no job since it was 'under the table'. Yet some of them had jobs, with pay stubs, paid taxes, filed returns and STILL were on welfare! They knew all the loopholes and worked it to their advantage.

Again, this is all a catch 22. There is no easy way to solve the situation. But the truth is that we need to eliminate the welfare system as we NOW know it. This monster has grown out of control and no one is able to figure out how to kill it.
Until we figure out how to offset all the programs needed to help while the beast is starved then we will continue to create a culture that depends on state and government assistance for their mistakes.

My opinion only.
Pax.

Edited November 16, 2004 by Quietfire

[cmotherofpirl]

I doubt unwed mothers will lose their support. Everyone recognizes that healthy babies make more sense than sick preemies.

On the job thing, it used to be giving the wealthy tax cuts did trickle down to all of us. However in this day of overseas outsourcing, we are not benefiting since the money is migrating elsewhere.

In Pennsylvania school loans are based on income. So if you are poor and you are smart you can go to college, you must maintain a minimum grade point average.

Most people do not feed families on $5.15 an hour, since most businesses pay more than that. My kids are in fast food [bottom of the food chain] and none of them ever started that low, and most kids make far more. The people in most trouble are trhe middle-aged and elderly women returning to the work force.

Several weeks ago, my son spent a week in Children's Hospital.We haven't got the bill yet.
As soon as they found out he only had a minimum wage job and no insurance the social workers applied for welfare for him to pay the medical bills.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']Most people do not feed families on $5.15 an hour, since most businesses pay more than that. My kids are in fast food [bottom of the food chain] and none of them ever started that low, and most kids make far more. The people in most trouble are trhe middle-aged and elderly women returning to the work force.[/quote]
I hear that often, but that's not how it is here in my area. I worked for Movie Gallery for quite some time, and the most I was ever paid was $5.40 an hour. Fast food only pays minimum wage here, and waitresses are paid far less than the minimum wage plus tips, but tips are very small here and some people don't even leave tips. And at many places, tips are split, which gives even less to the individual -- usually meaning that they're paid less than the minimum wage.

I know that in some places in the country the norm is more like $7.00 for most jobs. That isn't how it is here, though. Rarely does one get a retail or food service job here that pays more than $6.00 an hour. And what's bad about that is that most of our jobs here are either retail, food service or manufacturing jobs. The manufacturing jobs do pay somewhat more -- usually around $7.00, which isn't enough for most families either -- but they aren't as plentiful as the retail and food service jobs, and they're extremely difficult which means that there are people, especially women, who can't do them.

The best jobs you can get here are union jobs, which usually ensure that you're paid $8.00 or sometimes more depending on what job it is you're doing. But union jobs have become more and more rare, leaving the highest paying jobs here at about $7.00 an hour. And even though this is an economically depressed area, even $7.00 an hour doesn't meet the cost of living, and $5.15 doesn't even come close.

So this is a real problem here. People have suggested that I work to put myself through college. Obviously, I [b]do[/b] intend to work and work hard -- but it's assinine to think that I'll be able to put myself through college on what I'm paid. Without the education and training, the most I could even possibly hope to get paid would be $6.00 an hour. Who can put themselves through college on $6.00 an hour? And the real problem is that you can't pay for college with the jobs available, and then if you can't go to college the jobs available to you won't meet your cost of living as an independent adult. This is a hard reality for many young people in my area that I know, who continue to live with their parents because they can't get an education and thus the jobs available to them won't allow them to become independent.

For the people I know here, the problem isn't so much that anyone doesn't want to work (everyone I know works, and some two jobs), but that the pay rate doesn't even begin to meet even the most meager cost of living.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:10 AM'] I hear that often, but that's not how it is here in my area. I worked for Movie Gallery for quite some time, and the most I was ever paid was $5.40 an hour. Fast food only pays minimum wage here, and waitresses are paid far less than the minimum wage plus tips, but tips are very small here and some people don't even leave tips. And at many places, tips are split, which gives even less to the individual -- usually meaning that they're paid less than the minimum wage.
[/quote]
It's illegal for servers to be paid less than minimum wage. The restaurant owners must pay them to make up the difference to take them to minimum wage.

If they are not doing that, then those servers have a valid lawsuit.


What are the businesses taxes like in your area?

If you and others could lobby your local government to create attractive tax breaks for companies, they will build in your area.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

GF wrote:
So this is a real problem here. People have suggested that I work to put myself through college. Obviously, I do intend to work and work hard -- but it's assinine to think that I'll be able to put myself through college on what I'm paid. Without the education and training, the most I could even possibly hope to get paid would be $6.00 an hour. Who can put themselves through college on $6.00 an hour? And the real problem is that you can't pay for college with the jobs available, and then if you can't go to college the jobs available to you won't meet your cost of living as an independent adult. This is a hard reality for many young people in my area that I know, who continue to live with their parents because they can't get an education and thus the jobs available to them won't allow them to become independent.


I am missing something here. In PA you fill out the FATSA form and the governemt tells you how much money you and your family are expected to contribute to your college education. THe rest is made up by Pell Grants, PA grants, and school loans. Scholarships from the school of your choice help as well.
If you're smart you get a part-time job to help with travel clothing etc.

You can't do this in your state?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 17 2004, 12:57 PM'] It's illegal for servers to be paid less than minimum wage. The restaurant owners must pay them to make up the difference to take them to minimum wage.

If they are not doing that, then those servers have a valid lawsuit.


What are the businesses taxes like in your area?

If you and others could lobby your local government to create attractive tax breaks for companies, they will build in your area.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
No, restaurants do not have to pay minimum wage, because tips are counted as wages.

[Azriel]

Yep. Cmom is right.

I was poor as a church mouse when I went to college...basically got it covered by Pell grants.

I went to a local extension of the state university to cut down on expenses...I'm not saying its not hard as heck, but it can be done.

And there a lot of places in Michigan that are like PA - so much industry that has left, with little incentive to stay.