LiL Kat Said Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 My friend and I were discussing our faiths and what we believe. I was trying to explain to him about saints, the pope, and bishops and such. I don't remember the exact content but he ended up saying that the bible says that a person cannot be holy. And that all people are equal... I'm sitting there thinking ummm...... I know the pope is holy and there are certainly people holier than me and who are much better at being christian than i am. So I'm left a little confuzled... What do we as Catholics belive in this argument and Does the bible say this?? pax Kathleen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D0RK4JP2 Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 (edited) Gday, The Bible would say that no one is holy [in comparison to God]. I'll rely on someone else to provide the quotes. I'm not very good with using Holy Scripture . You should ask your friend for the book, chapter and verse. Your friend would believe that some people are holy, it's just that, if he has been taught to believe that no one is holy, then he would now have been taught not to not equate peoples goodness to what WE CALL [of sorts] holiness. Perhaps in your discussion you could ask him if you could replace the world 'holy' with 'good' or 'obediant' or 'loving' and see if he could call a saint one of those. If he can, then just say, 'holiness is like those things, see, you believe it too!' JMJ. Edited November 13, 2004 by D0RK4JP2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Its says "all have fallen short". Its hyperbole, because obviously not all have fallen short, remember Enoch who was carried to heaven, and the Blessed Mother who was full of grace, and Jesus himself prove it was a way of expressing a general truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 (edited) I would ask about this passage. [quote]The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. (James 5:16)[/quote] This statement presupposes that everyone is not equal in righteousness. If everyone was the same in righteousness then everyone’s prayer would be equally as powerful and the above passage would be meaningless. From talking to Baptisms I would guess that this belief that you’re talking about comes from the idea that all sin is equally sinful before God. I have been told that because God is so holy that stealing a penny from a rich person is just as big as an offense to God as stilling a hundred dollars from a poor person. Both are infinitely offensive to God. But this takes away from God's justice. To show that not all sin is equal you can go to 1 John 5:16-17 where it talks about mortal and non-mortal (venial) sin. Not everyone has committed the same sins and if sin is not equal in its offense to God then we are not all equal in holiness. There is more that could be given but I would ask them to give some scripture to support their claim. Edited November 13, 2004 by Cure of Ars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted November 14, 2004 Share Posted November 14, 2004 I know the references in which this person is trying to make, about no one being good or holy. Mt:19:17: 17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (DRV) Mk:10:18: 18 And Jesus said to him: Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God. (DRV) Lk:18:19: 19 And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. (DRV) However the Bible also tells us this: Lk:23:50: 50 ¶ And behold there was a man named Joseph who was a counsellor, a good and a just man, (DRV) And also we read in the Gospels that John was a just and holy man: Mk:6:20: 20 For Herod feared John, knowing him to be a just and holy man: and kept him, and when he heard him, did many things: and he heard him willingly. (DRV) Our bodies are called temples of God, and since they are temples of God they are to be holy: 1Cor:3:17: 17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. (DRV) Example in 1 Pt where a group of women are referred to as holy women: 1Pt:3:5: 5 For after this manner heretofore, the holy women also who trusted in God adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: (DRV) The Gospel references were not saying that people can not be good or holy, rather Jesus was pointing out that none are good in comparison with God. If Jesus had meant that no one could be considered good or holy people would not be referred to as such in the Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted November 14, 2004 Share Posted November 14, 2004 God calls us to holiness, and makes us holy in Christ Jesus: [b]Eph 1:3-6[/b] [b]3 [/b]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [b]4 [/b]even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. [b]5 [/b]He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [b]6 [/b]to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. if this is what God chooses us to be, and if Jesus makes us holy through his grace, how could it possibly be that we are unable to be holy? yes, we are all sinners. but, the grace of our Lord and Savior raises us up above our plight. it cleanses us, sanctifies us, and makes us "saints": [b]1 Cor 1:2[/b] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those [i][b]sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be [u]saints[/u] together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b][/i], both their Lord and ours: the word "saint" means "holy one." faithful members of the church are often referred to as saints. this of course would be absurd if holiness was unattainable. the bottom line is that if we deny man's potential to be holy in Christ Jesus, then we deny the power of his grace and the work that He does in each and every one of us. Jesus died so that we can be holy and be with him one day, presented before the Lord without blemish: [b]Eph 5:25-27[/b] [b]25 [/b]Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and [i][b]gave himself up for her,[/b][/i] [b]26 [/b][i][b]that he might sanctify her[/b][/i], having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, [b]27 [/b]that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, [i][b]that she might be holy and without blemish[/b][/i]. Scripture is unmistakable on this point. we are called to be holly. we are made holy by Christ. if we persevere in holiness we will be with him in heaven. as such, holiness is a very real prospect for us, not as the consequence of our own work, but by the work of Christ w/in us [b]Php 1:6[/b] And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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