Socrates Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Nov 15 2004, 08:51 AM'] I anxiously await anything resembleing a response from the " oh you have have to be sweet and spinless to Heretics and Infidels" camp. [/quote] I'm extremely busy now - don't really have time to post, but... Military action against a non-Catholic military enemy was not really what I was talking about. I was referring to the state executing those deemed heretics. And Don Juan, your post is insulting. There is quite some between being "sweet and spineless" and killing. Also, specific political situations were different in medieval Europe. Do you honestly think waging physical violence against "heretics" or "infidels" would bring anyone to Christ in today's world? Do you think Osama bin Laden would be right in his actions/strategy if he were a Catholic? Remember, there are non-Catholics on this post, and do you you think all this discussion by Catholics of whether we should kill heretics will make them more inclined to accept the Catholic Faith? I know it would make me run in the opposite direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote]Remember, there are non-Catholics on this post, and do you you think all this discussion by Catholics of whether we should kill heretics will make them more inclined to accept the Catholic Faith? I know it would make me run in the opposite direction! [/quote] You see I don't care if it will make them more inclined to accept the Faith, I care about telling them the Truth, only if they accept the Truth will they truely accept the Faith. I have no desire to suger coat the Faith to make it more appealing, tell the Truth nothing more nothing less. [quote] And Don Juan, your post is insulting. [/quote] Well I found almost every post on this thread insulting, not only personally but to the thousans who have died defending the church from heritics and infidels, not to mention the Magisterium who's past rule everyone here seems more than willing not only to question but openly contradict. [quote]Do you think Osama bin Laden would be right in his actions/strategy if he were a Catholic? [/quote] No but it is actually a matter of his tactics not his strategy, He targets civilians intentionally, that is blatently agianst the rules of war, he is a product of modern times and doesn't have the Tradition of the Church to guide him, so I cannot blame him, but no as a Catholic these Tactics would be unacceptable, but blowing up military targets is not, he could have hit the Pentegon, and even the Tower with the Paramilitary government offices in it, but not the other one and not with civilian populated planes. [quote]Do you honestly think waging physical violence against "heretics" or "infidels" would bring anyone to Christ in today's world? [/quote] yes I think it would help the Christians in the Sudan not be forcefully converted( particularly children), and enslaved, same with Christians all over North Africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 15 2004, 02:00 PM'] The Fourth Crusade was not called to sack Constantinople. This is evidenced by the fact that Innocent III excommunicated the leadership after they disobeyed his explicit command not to do it. In fact, he even told them that he didn't want them to take the deal being offered by Alexius because Innocent knew that Alexius could never pay up. It was a bad deal all around and far from a shining moment in Crusader history. I'm not so sure the indulgence would be gained when the action itself resulted in excommunications. [/quote] I know, yes, you are right, but if the Pope called for such a Crusade (with an indulgence), then it would be a Crusade, even against the eastern schismatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 02:52 PM'] I know, yes, you are right, but if the Pope called for such a Crusade (with an indulgence), then it would be a Crusade, even against the eastern schismatics. [/quote] Yes, but a very touchy situation to say the least. I think it much safer to stay within the realm of dangerous heretics and infidels (especially the Mohammedans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Nov 15 2004, 01:44 PM'] Well I found almost every post on this thread insulting, not only personally but to the thousans who have died defending the church from heritics and infidels, not to mention the Magisterium who's past rule everyone here seems more than willing not only to question but openly contradict.[/quote] Died defending the church? You mean like all the jews that were killed in the crusades along the way? You think I don't know the history? Edited November 15, 2004 by noncatholicname Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 All the Jews that were killed in the Crusades Hmmm. No I don't think they would qualify as dying defending the Church. Now with the exception of the sacking of Jeruselem during the first Crusade, that really didn't happen to any great extent, but what if it had, so what? Do you have any idea how many innocents we, the allies, killed( knowingly and with intention) to stop Hitler, how badly we violated the rules of war that we had ,of our own free will, agreed to, doest hat mean that stoping Hitler was not in and of itself a good thing, no, it means that some bad things where done in an otherwise noble cause, likwise with the Crusaders occasional overzealousness agianst the Jews as well a the Muslims. If you truely know the History you should know that the Crusaders ussually showed great restraint compared to the Seljuk turks that the where fighting. You would have to know something about the western Europeans experiance with the Mohammedian in Spain and along the Medeterrainian coast ( not to mention the First Crusades military campaign itself) to understand the Crusaders inroads into Total War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 (edited) [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 15 2004, 03:28 PM'] Yes, but a very touchy situation to say the least. I think it much safer to stay within the realm of dangerous heretics and infidels (especially the Mohammedans). [/quote] I agree we should focus on the mohammedans, but I don't think it is at all wrong to have a Crusade against any heretic (and they are heretics, not just schismatic, since they deny the Pope's authority, which, since Vat I is a heresy, and they reject the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, and other heresies). I think we are pretty much eye-to-eye here. Edited November 15, 2004 by CatholicCrusader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 15 2004, 07:10 PM'] I agree we should focus on the mohammedans, but I don't think it is at all wrong to have a Crusade against any heretic (and they are heretics, not just schismatic, since they deny the Pope's authority, which, since Vat I is a heresy, and they reject the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, and other heresies). [/quote] Vatican I is a heresy? It's blasphemy to condemn the Church's ecumencial councils, which are inspired by the Holy Spirit and INFALLIBLE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 No dave he is saying that since Vatican I it is a heresy ( not just schismatic) to deny the Popes Authority, and therefore the Orthodox Churches are not just Schismatic but Heretical--- he is NOT saying that Vatican I was Heretical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 Bring it on. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 i don't think there's any crusades comin up in the near future my friend... exactly what are you telling us to bring on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 You want the infidels dead. I'm an infidel. 2+2=what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 i don't want the infidels dead. i want them converted. but if they were putting me in danger and self defense demanded their death, yeah sure. kinda like how before the crusades Christians were being persecuted in the Holy Land and the Church called a crusade to defend Christendom and Christians. don't forget, the crusades have always been called defending Christendom from agressors. the albigansians were all over France and had torn down social order, didn't believe in morality so they went wild murdering, commiting adultery, et cetera... every time a crusade has been called it has been to defend against agressors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 (edited) Well Aluigi there could be, it wasn't but a few years ago that the bishop of the Sudan called for Aid agianst the Muslims. NonCatholicname ou aren't an infidel you are a heretic which is an entirely a differant thing, nor are you currently at least physically hostile to the Church or to attacking the faithful so I don't see that you would be in much danger regardless. Edited November 16, 2004 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Nov 15 2004, 07:31 PM'] Vatican I is a heresy? It's blasphemy to condemn the Church's ecumencial councils, which are inspired by the Holy Spirit and INFALLIBLE! [/quote] Come now, Dave. Surely you are being facetious. You know as well as anyone on here that he was not accusing Vat. I of heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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