JP2Iloveyou Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 The Political Parties thread was closed, but I just wanted to post this. Pope John Paul II has made it quite clear in various documents how he feels about the division within Christianity. Protestants are our brothers and sisters by virtue of their valid baptism. To simply lable them as heretics without distinguishing between formal and material heresy is dangerous to the Catholic faithful who may not know the difference. In such documents as Ut Unum Sint, His Holiness has encouraged dialogue with Protestants, not going out and killing them. God was pretty clear, I think, when he said "Thou shalt not kill." To assert that we should go around killing Protestants is not only absurd, but completely out of line and out of step as to what the Church teaches. In his document, "Freedom of Conscience and of Religion," Pope John Paul II explains how all people are obligated to seek truth and to follow it when they think they have found it. It is an assault against human dignity to say that we should have a total theocratic state, even if that state is a Catholic theocracy. In such a scenario, people would lose religious freedom and the freedom to search for truth. God desires that we love him freely, not because some government feels it is their duty to force us to be Catholic. I'm sorry Cmom, but I could not in good conscience let that thread die without posting this because those among us who are unfamiliar with the faith, Catholic and Protestant alike, may actually think that it is the position of the Catholic Church that we should go around killing all non-Catholics. I've heard a lot come from the Vatican as regards ecumenism, but I'm pretty sure Cardinal Arinze has never said we should kill all those who are not Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 [quote]It is an assault against human dignity to say that we should have a total theocratic state, even if that state is a Catholic theocracy.[/quote] Ideally there could be a Catholic theocratic State, with freedom of religion. Laws and policies made must adhere to Catholic teaching, but people can worship as what they find to be true... so as long as it's not satanism or various cult worship like branch dividian, flying saucers, etc... I would not say that would be an assault against human dignity. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 [url="http://www.phatmass.com/wallpaper/papers/erik_hollander800.jpg"]http://www.phatmass.com/wallpaper/papers/e...ollander800.jpg[/url] [quote]You are a creepy alien.[/quote] You should fix your avatar JP2Iloveyou Also, Ironmonk is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 For the sake of clarity and precision: You need to distinguish between a theocracy and a confessional state. Also, in the confessional state, false religions are merely tolerated. This is neither necessary, nor absolute. No one has a right (per se) to spread false religions. Furthermore, having a confessional state, even one that does not tolerate the public spreading of heresy, does not necessarily mean that all heretics are rounded up and executed. This is a misconception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 12 2004, 10:37 AM'] For the sake of clarity and precision: You need to distinguish between a theocracy and a confessional state. Also, in the confessional state, false religions are merely tolerated. This is neither necessary, nor absolute. No one has a right (per se) to spread false religions. Furthermore, having a confessional state, even one that does not tolerate the public spreading of heresy, does not necessarily mean that all heretics are rounded up and executed. This is a misconception. [/quote] Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 I really think you guys should read "Freedom of Conscience and of Religion." It is a short document, but I think in many cases we have the blind leading the blind here. Sorry guys. Also, I'm kind of computer stupid. I don't know how to fix my avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sorry, I think I contributed to the closing of the thread with my rather silly and immature reply to Catholic Crusader, regarding killing heretics. (I was tired of arguing with him, and found his suggestion that the state should kill those deemed heretics abhorrent and barbaric.) Quite frankly, this mentality is closer to that of Osama bin Laden, than that of the Church. I still stand with my earlier stated post. A "conversion" made at gunpoint (or on the torture rack) is not a true conversion, being likely made merely out of fear of death. ANd what is to make the state infallible in determining who is a heretic? (They thus killed Joan of Arc, later canonized a saint.) And what is to prevent the theocratic state from turning on the true Church, and proclaiming them heretics or traitors, launching a persecution of the Church (as Henry VIII did)? Jesus Christ, when He was on Earth, did not use violent force to lead men to Him, but the example of His self-giving sacrifice on the cross. The idea of killing non-believers cannot do anything to actually lead people to Christ's Truth, but in fact, turn many to rebell against the Church. You'd have civil war, anarchy, and bloodshed. How much did Europe's sixteenth-century wars of religion accomplish? The Church has in fact decried the practice of "forced conversion." Since a Catholic Theocracy will never occur in the forseeable future, this is all rather academic, but I think people talking about how a Catholic state should put heretics to death will do absolutely nothing to bring others to Christ's Church, and merely help perpetuate the old anti-Catholic myths. God bless, Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 Socrates, that's exactly right. I don't think anyone really believes we should kill heretics, but to even assert something like that is absurd. Forced conversions are always wrong. The means do not justify the ends. I'm pretty sure God does not want us to commit a mortal sin and risk losing our own souls simply to bring someone else into the faith. Let's take a more pertinent example. Suppose some guy agreed to convert to the Church if his girlfriend would have sex with him. Should she do it? Of course not! We are never justified in committing a mortal sin, regardless of what the outcome is! Forced conversion has driven many, many people away from the Church. It is the exact opposite of what the Holy Father has called for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) jp2 and Socrates, please go back and re-read my post. While you are at it, read Augustine Aquinas and Trent on the subject. Blind leading the blind? Edited November 12, 2004 by popestpiusx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 12 2004, 03:58 PM'] Socrates, that's exactly right. I don't think anyone really believes we should kill heretics, but to even assert something like that is absurd. Forced conversions are always wrong. The means do not justify the ends. I'm pretty sure God does not want us to commit a mortal sin and risk losing our own souls simply to bring someone else into the faith. Let's take a more pertinent example. Suppose some guy agreed to convert to the Church if his girlfriend would have sex with him. Should she do it? Of course not! We are never justified in committing a mortal sin, regardless of what the outcome is! Forced conversion has driven many, many people away from the Church. It is the exact opposite of what the Holy Father has called for. [/quote] The Church has always condemned coercion in matters of religion (cf. Vatican 2, [u]Dignitatis Humanae[/u], no. 12), but she has also taught, and continues to teach, that there is a moral duty on the part of civil society to recognize the true religion (cf. Vatican 2, [u]Dignitatis Humanae[/u], no. 1). Thus, the State has a moral duty to recognize the truth of the Catholic faith. Now of course the Church, as a prudential matter, does not have to insist upon the recognition of the State in a written constitution; in other words, the recognition given to the Church by the State can be purely a part of unwritten custom, nor does she have to insist upon this divine right, a right which she possesses as the mystical body of Christ. Finally, it must be borne in mind that the State has the duty to maintain the common good, and so, the right to religious exercise based on a malformed conscience is not absolute (cf. Vatican 2, [u]Dignitatis Humanae[/u], no. 7). God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 popestpiusx, I don't think our posts are really directed at you. I will read those sources if you will read these: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2FREED.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2FREED.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vlibrary/search2.asp"]http://www.ewtn.com/vlibrary/search2.asp[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2ECUM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2ECUM.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2MISS.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2MISS.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2NON.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2NON.HTM[/url] These should get you started. Here's one quick example of what you will find. From the Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate, [quote]The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men. 3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D0RK4JP2 Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Gday, Goodness I'm enjoying this discussion - it's so....PROPER. May God bless all of you! Whenever it comes to protestantism and the like I just...start gettting cranky and, well...snooty. I try not to, but I just have trouble wrapping my mind around how protestants and whoever else can honestly practise their religion. And this discussion is so civilised, and so informed and precise, it really has inspired me about how to treat protestants and the like. Praise the Lord! JMJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 For those interested in a thorough treatment of this topic, I recommend reading the two part article by Fr. Brian W. Harrison, which can be found at the links below: [url="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt33.html"]JOHN COURTNEY MURRAY: A RELIABLE INTERPRETER OF DIGNITATIS HUMANAE? (part 1)[/url] [url="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt34.html"]JOHN COURTNEY MURRAY: A RELIABLE INTERPRETER OF DIGNITATIS HUMANAE? (part 2)[/url] The following article may also be of interest: [url="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt9.html#II"]PIUS IX, VATICAN II AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTY [/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 12 2004, 07:45 PM'] I will read those sources if you will read these: [/quote] I didn't give any sources. I only mentioned a few names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now