Faith Alone

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:44 PM'] it is still God's wrath, but a more dynamic understanding to say that if He wanted to (which He does because He wills all men be saved, albeit His passive will) let the soul into heaven, it wouldn't want to go anyway because it is tainted by sin and dragged down by the own evil damage become inherent to the soul when it entered into eternity. God does beaver dam the person, because He cannot stand the presence of sin, and the person cannot stand the presence of God. [/quote]
An interesting notion. At first glance, I can't see anything wrong with it - and you're not denying that it is God who makes the decree "unrighteous", and not trying, as I first suspected, to rip wrath out of His mouth.

[Guest Aluigi]

Read Matthew 25

1 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat:
2 I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink:
3 I was a stranger, and you took me in:
4 Naked, and you covered me:
5 sick, and you visited me:
6 I was in prison, and you came to me.

The 7th is from Joseph of Arimathea's noble action of burying Jesus, to bury the dead.

I'm pretty sure you can find the 7 spiritual works too, i'll have to look. i know you can find the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit fully listed out in Isaiah. I think the 7 spiritual works of mercy would be seperated out dispersed through St. Paul's letters, you can look for them if you want I'm positive each one is there even if they're seperated.
1. Admonish the sinner
2. Instruct the ignorant
3. Counsel the doubtful
4. Comfort the sorrowful
5. Bear wrongs patiently
6. Forgive all injuries
7. Pray for the living and the dead
Admonishing sinner is certainly in Paul's letters, instructing ignorant i'd prolly look in the timothy letters, counsel doubtful maybe in John's letters? comfort the sorrowful prolly in john or james i think, bear wrongs patiently i'd bet would be in peter, forgive all injuries from the words of Jesus Himself I'm sure, pray for the living and the dead definitely

hmm... maybe you could find them all in the beatitude sermon Matthew 5 come to think of it...

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 06:09 PM'] Read Matthew 25

1 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat:
2 I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink:
3 I was a stranger, and you took me in:
4 Naked, and you covered me:
5 sick, and you visited me:
6 I was in prison, and you came to me.

The 7th is from Joseph of Arimathea's noble action of burying Jesus, to bury the dead.

I'm pretty sure you can find the 7 spiritual works too, i'll have to look. i know you can find the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit fully listed out in Isaiah. I think the 7 spiritual works of mercy would be seperated out dispersed through St. Paul's letters, you can look for them if you want I'm positive each one is there even if they're seperated.
1. Admonish the sinner
2. Instruct the ignorant
3. Counsel the doubtful
4. Comfort the sorrowful
5. Bear wrongs patiently
6. Forgive all injuries
7. Pray for the living and the dead
Admonishing sinner is certainly in Paul's letters, instructing ignorant i'd prolly look in the timothy letters, counsel doubtful maybe in John's letters? comfort the sorrowful prolly in john or james i think, bear wrongs patiently i'd bet would be in peter, forgive all injuries from the words of Jesus Himself I'm sure, pray for the living and the dead definitely

hmm... maybe you could find them all in the beatitude sermon Matthew 5 come to think of it... [/quote]
Sure, you can enumerate them like that, however, [b]why[/b] would you do so? Why not just address a persons need, rather than enumerating those needs and making them into some kind of special list.

[Guest Aluigi]

because Jesus listed them as reasons He would say "well done good and faithful servant". Catholics figured they better take note.

anyway, I think we've made a breakthrough. can we both give this statement of mine a nihil obstat to our beliefs? (that none of it contradicts what we believe to be true Christian Doctrine, )
[quote]it is still God's wrath, but a more dynamic understanding to say that if He wanted to (which He does because He wills all men be saved, albeit His passive will) let the soul into heaven, it wouldn't want to go anyway because it is tainted by sin and dragged down by the own evil damage become inherent to the soul when it entered into eternity. God does beaver dam the person, because He cannot stand the presence of sin, and the person cannot stand the presence of God.[/quote]

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 06:26 PM'] because Jesus listed them as reasons He would say "well done good and faithful servant". Catholics figured they better take note.

anyway, I think we've made a breakthrough. can we both give this statement of mine a nihil obstat to our beliefs? (that none of it contradicts what we believe to be true Christian Doctrine, )
[/quote]
As I said, at first glance, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it.

[Guest Aluigi]

i'll take that as sortof like your little nihil obstat, nothing stands in the way.

anyway, I really don't want to keep debating Don John's motives. We can reconcile our beliefs about God's judgement of a person somehwhat which is nice. Howa bout we move on to clarify the works and faith thing and the status before God.

you say works do not affect your standing before God. would you say your level of faith affects your standing before God?

[ICTHUS]

Whoa - I said that works do not affect a persons legal declaration of righteousness from God. Certainly, a person who habitually does more good works, etc, is more sanctified, but not more justified.

[quote]would you say your level of faith affects your standing before God?[/quote] No, so long as it is a faith that trusts in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins - that is why a three year old or a mentally retarded person can be saved. I should note that it would be sinful not to endeavour to increase our faith, but a little faith is enough. However, we ought always to pray "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"

Edited November 27, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Guest Aluigi]

someone of little faith (not mustard seed size, because that's a small pure faith of potential, but little faith as in "oh ye of little faith", little faith unnourished by works) is then just as justified as someone of great faith?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 07:18 PM'] someone of little faith (not mustard seed size, because that's a small pure faith of potential, but little faith as in "oh ye of little faith", little faith unnourished by works) is then just as justified as someone of great faith? [/quote]
No - a persons faith must produce works. I'm not denying t that. WHat i AM DENYING is that those works have any bearing on our legal status as "Just" before a holy God.

[Krush2k2]

Justified by faith alone? Its easy I guess for someone to live by that creed when they get can get high all the time, get drunk, and curse thier parents and not attend church-but yet they belive in God for fear of hell-they fear God. I know tons of people-go to any high school and ask-who belive in God, and persay trust in him, yet behind the red line do many of those things listed above. Isnt good works a part of true faith? Truly beliveing in God is seeing a line that offends him, and constantly sinful acticities is like a slap on his face, but no no, protestants belive just belive and you are 'saved' for life. How can you be saved before death? Why toss that word around like its a reward? Confess your belife and your 'saved'! Give me a break. God gives us free will-we have the chance to show our love and obediance. Catholics know good works are proof of good faith. Protestant seem to go for a more shallow definition of the word. (BTW im referring to those who throw out the good works is good for the soul argument) Catholics seek a deeper one.

With respects,
Ryan

[Balthazor]

misspost sorry

Edited November 28, 2004 by Balthazor

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 27 2004, 11:40 PM'] No - a persons faith must produce works. I'm not denying t that. WHat i AM DENYING is that those works have any bearing on our legal status as "Just" before a holy God. [/quote]
i can see that we will never work this specific out without working out the fundamental error at the heart of it, that God considers anyone just if they have not been made truly just. He does not simply ignore their sin, and I challenge you to provide any scripture that says He does. He forgives and transforms you.

For Him to say anyone is just without them being truly just people (as in virtuous, avoiding sin) would be to make God a liar.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 12:40 AM'] No - a persons faith must produce works. I'm not denying t that. WHat i AM DENYING is that those works have any bearing on our legal status as "Just" before a holy God. [/quote]
I just want to jump in for a second to reiterate that I AM DENYING that Icthus or anyone knows the mind of God enough to determine the state of any soul's "legal status" when standing before God...even his own.

Aside from dying immediately after a valid baptism or sacramental confession, such a view is just the sin of presumption.

It all goes back to the protestant position: "False faith is only possible for others. I'm saved because I've got a true faith." OSAS is so funny.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]Justified by faith alone? Its easy I guess for someone to live by that creed when they get can get high all the time, get drunk, and curse thier parents and not attend church-but yet they belive in God for fear of hell-they fear God. I know tons of people-go to any high school and ask-who belive in God, and persay trust in him, yet behind the red line do many of those things listed above. Isnt good works a part of true faith? [/quote] Yes - good works are a part of true faith. Absolutely! As we read in the Westminster Confession...

[quote]II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification[b]:[4][/b] [b]yet is it not alone in the person justified[/b], but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love[b].[5][/b][/quote]

Proofs listed are:

[b][4][/b] John 1:12, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1
[b][5][/b] James 2:17-26, Galatians 5:6

[quote]Truly beliveing in God is seeing a line that offends him, and constantly sinful acticities is like a slap on his face, but no no, protestants belive just belive and you are 'saved' for life.[/quote] You have an errant view of what Eternal Security is, my friend. This is a strawman, at best. I will elaborate. Constant sinful activities [i]are[/i] a slap in God's face. As we read in the WCF (again - I lurrrve quoting this document)

[quote]V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified[b];[14][/b] and although they can never fall from the sate of justification[b],[15][/b] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and [i]not have the light of His countenance restored unto them[/i], [u]until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance[/u].[b] [16][/b][/quote]
Proofs listed are:

[14] Matt 6:12, 1 John 1:7-9, 1 John 2:1-2
[15] Luke 22:32, John 10:28, Heb 10:14
[16] Psalm 89:31-33, Psalm 51:7-12, Psalm 32:5, Matt 26:75, 1 Cor 11:30-32, Luke 1:20

Also, another WCF quote

[quote]III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] [b]and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15][/b][/quote]

So, far from denying that the elect may fall into greivous sin, one of the most major Protestant confessions of faith (that of the Presbyterians, in case you wondered) affirms it, and indeed, affirms that they who commit such unrepentant sins incur God's displeasure, greive His Spirit, have their hearts hardened, their consciences wounded, and bring temporal judgements on themselves. Yet, as we read in the paragraph preceeding the one quoted above -

[quote]They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1][/quote]

[quote name='Krush2k2' date='Nov 27 2004, 11:54 PM'] How can you be saved before death? [/quote] I think someone said it earlier - salvation is spoken of in Scripture in three senses - past, present, and future. Protestants do not shy away from affirming that we [b]are saved[/b] - we enjoy the grace of God in the here and now. As it is written: (Romans 5:1, parentheses mine) "Therefore, having been ([i]notice, past tense[/i]) justified by faith, [b]we have peace[/b] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" - we also affirm that we have been saved in the past, and that we will be, and are being, saved - hence, the references in the Westminster Confession above to them that "shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved"

[quote]Why toss that word around like its a reward?[/quote] Because it is.

1 Cor 9:25

Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; [b]but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. [/b]

2 Tim 4:8

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Revelation 2:10

Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, [b]and I will give you the crown of life. [/b]

Eternal security [b]is not a naive assessment of the power of the World, the Flesh, and the Devil[/b] - it is rather a supreme confidence in Him who is able to keep us from falling (Jude, v. 24) , and that He who began a good work in us will complete it to the day of Christ Jesus (Phil 1:6)



[quote] Confess your belife and your 'saved'! Give me a break.[/quote] Actually, no. Eternal security is much more than confessing a belief. See, when we are justified, God brings us to a whole other mode of existance. We are transferred out of the Kingdom of Satan and into the Kingdom of God. It is a change in which God 'begins a good work in us' - and St. Paul seems supremely confident that if God begins that good work, He will complete it (Phil 1:6). Also, Jesus seems pretty confident that no one can pluck those whom He is given by the Father out of His hand (John 10:28)

[quote] God gives us free will-we have the chance to show our love and obediance. [/quote] I would ask what your definition of 'free will' is, however, it's really irrelevant. Yes - those whom God justifies will of necessity show their obedience to the will of their Father.

[quote]Catholics know good works are proof of good faith.[/quote] So do we, as shown above. We simply deny that those works have any status on our [i]legal standing before a holy God[/i]

[quote]Protestant seem to go for a more shallow definition of the word. (BTW im referring to those who throw out the good works is good for the soul argument) Catholics seek a deeper one.[/quote] I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate?

Peace of the risen and ascended Christ,
Ryan

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 28 2004, 12:10 AM'] i can see that we will never work this specific out without working out the fundamental error at the heart of it, that God considers anyone just if they have not been made truly just. He does not simply ignore their sin, and I challenge you to provide any scripture that says He does. He forgives and transforms you.

For Him to say anyone is just without them being truly just people (as in virtuous, avoiding sin) would be to make God a liar. [/quote]
Shall we, then, start another thread on the nature of justification?