Brother Adam Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Just ramblings for the evening. On "Faith Alone" By RC Sproul I appreciate Sprouls attempt to approach the faith alone doctrine for what it truly is - a protest against the doctrine held by the Catholic Church. He cites many Catholic documents to make his refutation of salvation by faith + something for salvation by faith alone. I think he does a fine job of proving that we are not saved by faith + something, but simply mistakes Catholicism to teach that it is Faith + something. She teaches that we are saved by faith. When someone finally realizes what it means that we are saved by faith, and not faith alone, and not faith + something, they are 90% of the way to coming home to the Catholic Church. Well...in a sense anyway. The tenant of "faith alone" really is an odd one when someone sits down to think about it. Just what is faith alone and why is this "faith" all "alone"? Very rare is the Reformed scholar who truly believes faith is alone in justification. Because for faith to be alone it means no action of the recipient has any merit or effect, including trust, belief, and prayer. God solely saves the person whether they like it or not. Once more what should be even more confusing for the Fundamentalist is that Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox Christians, all who are older than the Fundamental movement, all believe in infant baptism, and at least 2 sacraments, and all of them hold firmly to "faith alone". So faith alone either cannot mean what Fundamentalists intend it to mean, especially through it's coiner, Martin Luther, who overly harshly called anabaptists "idiots" and "geniuses", or we admit that there are about as many definitions of "faith alone" as there are denominations. Catholics on the other hand simply take the Word Incarnate at His Word, and trust that when we are saved by faith, it is so. And that faith, as Romans (see especially 1:5) so beautifully illustrates, is that all or nothing approach to God. Faith is not only an intellectual belief, but an obedience to God. We don't get to choose to be partially obedient to God. Jesus will not be kind to these people who cry out "Lord, Lord". His words will be "Depart from me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 14, 2004 Share Posted November 14, 2004 The EO affirm Sola Fide? News to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 14, 2004 Author Share Posted November 14, 2004 EO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted November 14, 2004 Share Posted November 14, 2004 Eastern Orthodox... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 14, 2004 Author Share Posted November 14, 2004 This being your only question I assume you agree with the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 13 2004, 11:05 PM'] This being your only question I assume you agree with the rest. [/quote] Not necessarily. I just did a quick skim through it due to lack of time, and that seemed kind of weird to me. I always thought the EO were more in line with the Church of Rome's stance that justification is not by faith alone and that we have to earn our salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 15, 2004 Author Share Posted November 15, 2004 "that we have to earn our salvation." It's interesting really that you continue to base your entire argument on something you know isn't true as so "matter of factly". Why are you afraid of the truth if you believe you are right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 14 2004, 08:39 PM'] "that we have to earn our salvation." It's interesting really that you continue to base your entire argument on something you know isn't true as so "matter of factly". Why are you afraid of the truth if you believe you are right? [/quote] Well, we have at least one Roman Catholic on this board espousing it. [quote name='Don Jon of Austria']Why is that weird [b]I didn't go to church last week [/b]I could have but I didn't if I[b] die tonight there is a VERY good chance I will go to Hell [/b]and I assure you [b]there are few breathing inthe world today as devoted to the sacraments as I[/b][/quote] If that doesn't prove that many, [b]many[/b] Roman Catholics are trying to earn their way into Heaven by works of the Law, I don't know what does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 no, that proves that he committed a grave sin against a commandment of Almighty God (one of the big Ten) knowingly and fully consented to not doing it. he feels as if he's culpable for this sin, he knows that if he is that means he has killed his faith and any professed faith would simply be a banging gong, devoide of faith or love. now did he really commit a mortal sin? if he died tonight would he go to hell? not necessarily, but he did make the point he is not saved by works, just because he is such a devoted person to the sacraments doesn't mean he cannot go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 23 2004, 08:59 PM'] [quote name='Don Jon of Austria']Why is that weird [b]I didn't go to church last week [/b]I could have but I didn't if I[b] die tonight there is a VERY good chance I will go to Hell [/b]and I assure you [b]there are few breathing inthe world today as devoted to the sacraments as I[/b][/quote] [/quote] thats so outlandish u want a pat on the back should we call you super catholic ??? get real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 does no one see the humility behind his admission of the danger he has put himself in by a sin of grave matter? it's an observation that the majority of people in the world are not devoted to the sacramants. okay, it could tread dangerously near the sin of pride (but who amoung us has never been guilty of that?) but it is still a reasonable observation. i see his statement as fairly humble, though he possibly had too high of a degree of despair in the tone, i think it was because he was making a point. i don't know though. one should have more hope than that, Catholic doctrine will reaffirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 i know alota hard working middle class people who belive in their heart that Jesus is Lord who raise a family, and do the best they can and as long as they keep their faith in the lord their gonna be just fine.......regardless if they make every single mass or one a month......i know alot of you are gonna disagree with that...but so be it When you start makeing comments like " Theres a very good chance i will go to hell cuz i missed mass tongiht " Then your takeing away the love and the very essence that makes up God....your makeing him look stupid....God dont work that way And when you say " I ASSURE YOU THERE ARE FEW BREATHING IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT ARE AS DEVOTED AS I AM " your makeing me fall off my chair and laugh..........Imagine wut God is doing when he hears that......Out of the whole world, your one of the best ??? hehe righttttt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Don John recognizes that with knowledge comes responsibility. He knows that the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant require him to sanctify the Lord's Day by attending Mass. Those who do not hold this knowledge will not be held as culpable as those that do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't tell people, we don't want to trust in ignorance making them inculpable, but it does mean that IF a person goes to their grave never recognizing that necessity and freely going against it, they are not culpable for mortal sin. Don John will agree thus far I believe. I'm going to let him adress the comment, I would advise him it is kinda like the pharisee praying thanking God he is better than the tax collector while the tax collector is there repenting of his sin, but then again he is right there admitting a sin of grave matter that puts him in danger of hell because it can kill his faith. there's not a tone of repentance there, but he was only making a point on a website not necessarily pouring out his heart, he could very well be very repentant over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 (edited) ok, ur right but do you realise wut hell is ??? hell is forever, eternity, never comeing back from, burning forever, your worst nightmare, surrouned by satan foreverrrr think about that Would your loveing Father do that to you becuz you missed mass ?????? Jesus said you could sum up the commadments with "LOVE God with your whole heart and love your neighbor as thy self " I agree, go to church every week, partake In eating Gods body and drinking his blood. In no way am I discourgeing this....but dont mock God, It is one thing to fear him with your whole heart, but if you really think God is gonna send you to hell becuz you missed mass, then God bless your soul,God loves you and is your best friend (He wouldnt do you like that)................But I dont think its cool to use you missing mass to get a rightous attitude thinking your better and all that........And i like your comparison about the tax collector and the sinnner.....Brilliant.......Much love to you Edited November 24, 2004 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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