A Protestant Argument

[bookwyrm]

So . . .
anyone heard that protestant argument about the mass . . . its something like 'Jesus died once to save us from sin, but the catholics believe that his sacrifice is repeated in the mass' or something blahdeblahdeblah.

If you have heard this argument, could you clarify it and explain how to counter it?

Thanks a bunch,

-Shannon

[Brother Adam]

Sure, tell them that St. Paul himself said that his sufferings were added up to the cross to make up for what is lacking. Then explain to them that Jesus is not re-sacrificed, but that Jesus is God and he operates outisde of our man-made invented "time". He has been sacrficed "once adn for all" and we are called to recieve Him in the last passover, which is perpetuated over time. John 6 uses unmistakably explicet language to describe communion as his actual body and blood.

Then tell them to read their Bible.

The reference section should have plenty more material for you to use.

[D0RK4JP2]

Gday,

Most protestants believe that Christ died for EVERYONE right? Therefore, EVERYONE includes our first parents and the whoever lives to see the end of time and the final judgement. Christ died for everyone therefore, THAT SAME SACRIFICE must, somehow, not apply to the rules of time if it were to go BACK to the beginnings of mankind and FORWARD to the end of it. It's like a rock hitting a pond - the ripples are felt in the entire pond. It's not as if Christ dies over and over and over and over again, no, His SAME death is perpetuated through time for our salvation from our sins.

I'm not biblical scholar, but that's my logical approach to it. The Catholic Church is very logical .

JMJ.

Edited November 12, 2004 by D0RK4JP2

[franciscanheart]

Laudate_Dominum, Jan 31 2004, 10:28 PM
[quote][b]The Sacrifice of the Mass[/b]

I wish I had a dime for everytime I've heard this one. Jesus Christ is NOT re-crucified in the Mass, the Church has never taught this and never will. I've yet to meet a protestant who doesn't think that this is what the Church teaches. It's anti-catholic propaganda at worst, and ignorance/misunderstanding at best.

It's a very important point too, because it touches upon the nature of Christ's Atonement and the reality of our Redemption, not to mention the nature of the Mass. If Christ is recrucified at each Mass then that means His death on Calvary wasn't enough. It also contradicts Scripture since Hebrews says that Christ died "once and for all".

So what does the Church teach? Well, from the first century we have statements about the Mass as a Sacrifice. The Didache, Justin Martyr, all the way up to today speak of this essential aspect of the Mass. And it's the teaching of the Eastern Church's as well. It's not a Roman invention at the Council of Trent as some would have you believe. Actually it's in Scripture too. An anaysis of the Greek in the account of the Last Supper reveals that the whole institution narrative is couched in sacrificial terminology and a sacrificial context. Jesus is the High Priest, in the order of Melchizedek, the Eucharist is like the bread and wine that Mel offered.
Christ's bloody Sacrifice was once and for all, this is what those passages in Hebrews are talking about, the end of the bloody sacrifices of the Jews, but the Eucharist is offered as an unbloody Sacrifice.

There is nothing at all preventing Christ, in an unbloody manner, from continually offering himself to God in an unbloody manner -- as a living sacrifice, as his spiritual service (Rom. 12:1), appealing to God on our behalf (Heb. 7:25, 9:24), in his unbloody, glorified flesh (cf. Paul VI, Credo of the People of God).

The Eucharistic Sacrifice that is offered at the Mass is not a supplement to Christ's once and for all Atoning Sacrifice at Calvary. It is the representation of that Sacrifice and our association with it. Salvation, in it's essence, is association with the Paschal Mystery. At the Mass we are united with Christ's Sacrifice and recieve spiritual gifts through the infinite merits of Christ. The Mass exists so that we might be drawn into and participate in the Offering of Christ. "Christ died for our sins to make of us an offering to God" - (from vespers for the feast of St. Ignatius of Antioch). And Hebrews 9:22-24 indicates the ongoing nature of "heavenly sacrifices" (as opposed to the merely earthly ones of the old Covenant). Christ is before the Father making intercessions on our behalf, the Mass is our corporate memorial and participation in the heart of Redemption.

So Christ was crucified once and for all. The Mass makes present the Sacrifice of Calvary (think of it as a time machine, it puts us at the foot of the Cross). And we are drawn into the glorified flesh of Christ and His Oblation which is mystically offered to the Father through Christ in the priest (who stands in the person of Christ, in persona Christi).

Many misunderstand Hebrews (and Revelation) when it comes to these issues because they do not understand the way the concepts of heaven, the temple, the priesthood, etc. relate in the Biblical imagery. Hebrews actually affirms the reality of the Sacrifice of the Mass, as does the book of Revelation, the institution narratives, Paul's letters, and the Old Testament prophecies and typologies.


[quote][b]The Didache[/b]
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [b][A.D. 70][/b]).

[b]Pope Clement I[/b]
"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [b][A.D. 80][/b]).

[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [b][A.D. 110][/b]).

[b]Justin Martyr[/b]
"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [b][A.D. 155][/b]).[/quote][/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='bookwyrm' date='Nov 12 2004, 02:52 AM'] So . . .
anyone heard that protestant argument about the mass . . . its something like 'Jesus died once to save us from sin, but the catholics believe that his sacrifice is repeated in the mass' or something blahdeblahdeblah.

If you have heard this argument, could you clarify it and explain how to counter it?

Thanks a bunch,

-Shannon [/quote]
Jesus died once. When we go to Mass, we go back in time to that one sacrifice and stand at the foot of the cross with Mother Mary and St John. The word we use in english is "Remembering" but it is a lousy translation of what actually happens. The real word that describes what actually happens is anamnesis.



here is a discussion we just had on another board. The writer is a theologian.

The definition of Anamnesis which you read is closer to the original
meaning than what we have in English - but it still does not cover the full
definition of the Greek word 'anamnesis'.

Jesus said (as expressed in English), "Do this 'in anamnesis' of me.

"Make ye my anamnesis" is UNDOUBTEDLY a better technical expresson of
the Greek than "Do this in (remembrance, memory, commemoration, memorial, or
memory) of me. All the words in (parens) have been used in various English
translations of Jesus' words in our English language Mass.

Various translators used those words because they corporately know there
is no English word which fully truly carries the sense of
the Greek word "anamnesis".

"Make you my anamnesis" is technically more accurate - but it would be
incomprehensible to most people.

Again, there is no precise English equivalent of anamnesis. WHY IS THAT
TRUE?

It is true because "commemoration", "remembrance", "memorial",
"memory" and all similar English words have a connotation of something which
is mentally remembered, without the thing itself being present in any other
way.

On the other hand (unlike our closesest English equivalents), in the
Scriptures 'anamnesis' (and its verbal form) means "recalling" or
"remembering" or "representing" before God a past event in THAT IS ACTUALLY
OPERATIVE IN ITS AFFECTS HERE AND NOW.

This is the actual sense of our English "commemoration" or "remembrance"
or "memorial" or "memory" which is used here when Our Lord says "Make you my
anamnesis".

It is not just a recalling of some past event.

While it IS also a "making present" of something which took place in the
past:

It is ALSO a reference to something which actually took place in the
past - but - whose affects are operatively also actually present in the here
and now. That is why it is referred to in several OT prophecies as a
"perpetual sacrifice" which will take place as a result of the arrival of
the Messiah.

But there is no way to clearly express in English the sense of the Greek
original.

[phatcatholic]

good work everyone