The thief on the cross

[goldenchild17]

Lk 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don’t you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’" 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Jesus told the thief that "today you will be with me in paradise."

The criminal on the cross that was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise today, did he go through purgatory first?

So did Christ obsolve him from his sins and the criminal went straight to heaven, or did he still go through Purgatory?

What is meant by "TODAY you will be with me..."

[Guest Aluigi]

there's no comma or breakage in the greek, it's very likely he was saying:

I tell you today,

you will be with me in paradise.

[goldenchild17]

Okay thanks. Anybody else?

[CatholicCrusader]

He couldn't have possibly gone to Heaven THAT DAY, since Christ went to release the souls from Limbo of the Fathers between then and Easter Sunday, so that when He rose and saw St. Mary Magdalene, He could tell her: "Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father" St. John XX. 17.

I don't think he went to Purgatory, though, as there was no Purgatory until the New Law. Under the Old Law there was the Limbo of the Fathers where those who would eventually go to Heaven (when Christ freed them from Good Friday until Eastern Sunday morning) went and waited for Christ.

[Guest Aluigi]

hold up, isn't limbo traditionally thought of as paradise?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 11 2004, 01:23 PM'] hold up, isn't limbo traditionally thought of as paradise? [/quote]
No, limbo is a place where holy souls waited to be brought into paradise by Christ...they waited for Him before He died.

[Guest Aluigi]

is Heaven considerd "paradise" in the Christian Tradition... because Adam and Eve didn't live in heaven, they lived in paradise: a place of natural hapiness...

which is where the holy souls were waiting before Christ came, a state of natural hapiness, correct?

then the argument of i say to you today, you will be with me in paradise, isn't even needed (because i've seen some dispute there where ppl say the greek shows the break should be before the today)

so what is paradise in Christian Teaching? I don't think it is heaven. Heaven is the beatific vision, supernatural Divine hapiness.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 11 2004, 03:19 PM'] is Heaven considerd "paradise" in the Christian Tradition... because Adam and Eve didn't live in heaven, they lived in paradise: a place of natural hapiness...

which is where the holy souls were waiting before Christ came, a state of natural hapiness, correct?

then the argument of i say to you today, you will be with me in paradise, isn't even needed (because i've seen some dispute there where ppl say the greek shows the break should be before the today)

so what is paradise in Christian Teaching? I don't think it is heaven. Heaven is the beatific vision, supernatural Divine hapiness. [/quote]
We have paradise...the Garden of Eden, then we have the paradise...the Heavenly Kingdom (a higher sense of the word "paradise" where we interact in the in the total outpouring of ourselves), and limbo...also called "the Bosom of Abraham" in the Gospels, where holy souls waited, separated from their bodies (and there is the distinction from the Garden of Eden), for Christ to lead them to Heaven.

[Guest Aluigi]

yeah, it's not the garden of eden

but the word paradise, what does Jesus mean by it? can you provide evidence He means Heaven? it seems to me He would more likely mean the Bosom of Abraham, a place of natural hapiness.

is there any instance of Heaven being called "paradise" anywhere other than the Koran?

[StColette]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 11 2004, 03:07 PM'] it seems to me He would more likely mean the Bosom of Abraham, a place of natural hapiness.
[/quote]
That's what I was thinking too Al.

I do know off the top of my head that there are three references to paradise in the New Testament.

Lk:23:43
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

2Cor:12:4:
That he was caught up into paradise and heard secret words which it is not granted to man to utter.

Rv:2:7:
He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of my God.

Now I know 2 Cor is referring to Heaven as paradise and NewAdvent seems to agree.

[Guest Aluigi]

so what do you think Jesus was referring to when He said paradise? I'm really leaning towards Him meaning the Bosom of Abraham, because that is all that is possible for anyone who dies before Christ's ASCENSION, correct?

[phatcatholic]

i think that the questions raised in this thread have already been answered [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=16867"][b]here[/b][/url]

[StColette]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 11 2004, 03:28 PM'] so what do you think Jesus was referring to when He said paradise? I'm really leaning towards Him meaning the Bosom of Abraham, because that is all that is possible for anyone who dies before Christ's ASCENSION, correct? [/quote]
Yes I agree with the fact that Jesus was probably referring to the Bosom of Abraham. You're correct on the fact that those who are right in the eyes of God are placed within the Bosom of Abraham, because it is there that they don't suffer torment.

Lk:16:22-24
22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

It's through my understanding that through the Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension into Heaven, that the gates were opened, the Ascension was the final stage in this process and is thus considered the time at which the gates of Heaven were opened. So in saying that, this means that the thief would have had to go somewhere until the Ascension into Heaven. Which means that it's most probable that the thief was taken into the Bosom of Abraham and kept there until after the Ascension.