CatholicCrusader Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 10 2004, 01:29 PM'] Not in every society, it isn't. I know and abide by the Church's teachings on the death penalty. I know that it is sometimes necessary and good, but that it is most often unnecessary in our society, and where death is unnecessary, it is not good. [/quote] What do you mean by unneccesary? Do you mean that it is possible to deter the crime a different way? Or do you mean that it is not necessary to institute JUSTICE, as well as, of course, deter the crime? The Church teaches the death penalty is to: a) first and foremost INSTITUTE JUSTICE FOR A WRONG COMMITTED, and b) deter the criminal from committing the crime again. The fact that the death penalty deters crime is an accident of it. It would certainly do so, but in all civil societies for all ages there has been no problem detaining criminals in jail for life. All you need is an armed man outside his chamber to stop him from getting out... The fact of the matter is that it must be a JUST punishment. God is perfectly merciful, but He is also perfectly just. "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: as it hath pleased the Lord so is it done" Job i. 21. God is just, and the system of the government must mimic God as best as possible. The death penalty is necessary to institute JUSTICE. From the Catechism of the Council of Trent: "Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of PARAMOUNT OBEDIENCE to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord." St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that heretics, too, ought to be put to death: [quote]I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 CatholicCrusader, I know what the Church teaches. I know that the Holy Father has said that the death penalty is unnecessary in advanced societies where criminals needn't be put to death to save lives, to protect others from scandal, etc. The death penalty, by and large, is no longer seen as a deterent by psychologists and sociologists. Furthermore, the only goal it will achieve in most cases in our country's circumstances is revenge, which is not a proper cause. It is right to fight for justice, which includes fighting for mercy. One cannot be without the other. In addition, it is more costly to send a man to death than to keep him alive in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote]CatholicCrusader, I know what the Church teaches. I know that the Holy Father has said that the death penalty is unnecessary in advanced societies where criminals needn't be put to death to save lives, to protect others from scandal, etc.[/quote] 1) The Pope saying that doesn't make it "Church teaching". 2) The point ISN'T just to "save lives" or "protect from scandal". It is to institute JUSTICE. It is not just that an innocent man be murdered and his guilty killer be left to live. He must be killed himself to have justice. "Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." Genesis ix. 6 [quote]The death penalty, by and large, is no longer seen as a deterent by psychologists and sociologists. Furthermore, the only goal it will achieve in most cases in our country's circumstances is revenge, which is not a proper cause. It is right to fight for justice, which includes fighting for mercy. One cannot be without the other.[/quote] It seems that you think punishment for a wrong (justice) means revenge. Killing a person because he murdered someone else is instituting justice, not revenge, and it certainly is not wrong when done even only for that reason. [quote]In addition, it is more costly to send a man to death than to keep him alive in prison.[/quote] A rope costs five dollars, and you can re-use it... that's a lot cheaper. Nonetheless, even in America where they have a ridiculous system of death row that takes years and years and costs a lot of money, 1) it is still cheaper than life in prison 2) even if were not, then one should call for a reform of the system not an abolition of the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) The difference between you and Micah is that his argument is not limited to just what Trent says; his encompasses the [i]full[/i] Magisterium. Edited November 10, 2004 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 The Church existed before Trent oh yeah, guess what, it still exists now. and it has a lot to say in every generation. deal with it and listen up or shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 10 2004, 02:19 PM'] 1) The Pope saying that doesn't make it "Church teaching". 2) The point ISN'T just to "save lives" or "protect from scandal". It is to institute JUSTICE. It is not just that an innocent man be murdered and his guilty killer be left to live. He must be killed himself to have justice. "Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." Genesis ix. 6 It seems that you think punishment for a wrong (justice) means revenge. Killing a person because he murdered someone else is instituting justice, not revenge, and it certainly is not wrong when done even only for that reason. A rope costs five dollars, and you can re-use it... that's a lot cheaper. Nonetheless, even in America where they have a ridiculous system of death row that takes years and years and costs a lot of money, 1) it is still cheaper than life in prison 2) even if were not, then one should call for a reform of the system not an abolition of the death penalty. [/quote] 1. Perhaps not, but I don't think he contradicts Church teaching in saying it. Therefore, if I say it, and you call me wrong, you also call the Holy Father wrong. 2. Killing a man as a penalty for his actions is just. Letting a man live so that he may have the chance to turn to God is also just. 3. The death penalty is more expensive, at least according to my law studies teacher in high school. My father's best friend is a judge, want me to find out? The death penalty is for the most part unnecessary in our society. Men should be allowed to live and to repent whenever possible so as not to cause further evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 10 2004, 03:14 PM'] The Church existed before Trent oh yeah, guess what, it still exists now. and it has a lot to say in every generation. deal with it and listen up or shut up. [/quote] Totally uncharitable post! Re-read St. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazor Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 10 2004, 07:18 AM'] Ironmonk, I happen to be a registered Democrat and as usual I resent your implications that all Democrats are evil. Thats like saying all Republicans are intelligent... People make sweeping generalizations until they grow up enough to learn all the exceptions. [/quote] I am a little surprised. Please don't take this as an insult, you just caught me offguard, that you are a Democrat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Nov 10 2004, 02:39 PM'] Totally uncharitable post! Re-read St. Paul. [/quote] Charity isn't sugar coating. I don't believe that was uncharitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 I believe that this whole thread has officially gotten out of hand and away from MC Just's original post. Ya'll take it outside. Go fight in your own backyards. Be nice. Go to confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 10 2004, 04:38 PM'] The death penalty is for the most part unnecessary in our society. Men should be allowed to live and to repent whenever possible so as not to cause further evil. [/quote] I think it was Cardinal George who said a death sentence is a great incentive to examine your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 10 2004, 04:46 PM'] I think it was Cardinal George who said a death sentence is a great incentive to examine your life. [/quote] If only they were administered justly ... -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 10 2004, 04:43 PM'] I am a little surprised. Please don't take this as an insult, you just caught me offguard, that you are a Democrat. [/quote] I live in Pennsylvania which has a great tradition of Pro-Life Democrats. It does not good to be a Republican in my county. Besides if you are not registered in a party you cannot vote in the primaries. I regularly vote Republican and split my ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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