ironmonk Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Nov 10 2004, 12:23 AM'] To say that people that vote democratic are going against Church teaching and are wrong for doing so is wrong of you. You cant generalize and say that everyone in a specific party is for or against anything. you cant make statements like that because neither party is completely "inline" with Church teachings. and the level of "correctness" on moral and other issues changes with almost every election. and another thing, not all republicans are pro life or against stem cell research and gay marriage. not every person in the republican or democratic party agrees completely on every issue. they simply think a lot alike on some main points which is why they are in that party. no one thinks exactly the same way. it just doesnt happen so its unfair to generalize like that. jennie was right. SOME democrats are that way. others are not. and hate.... it's such a strong word. a little more charity would be appreciated. [/quote] Really... gosh... I didn't know that... I mean aren't all republicans pro life and pro family??? I was told they were??? Wait, let me reread what I wrote.... Oh, here is your delima... I was writing about national party agendas.. hmmm... I wonder how you put things there that was not. LOL Be wise. Read it again and put a little thought into it this time. Be sure to visit [url="http://www.DemocratsNoMore.org"]http://www.DemocratsNoMore.org[/url] THEN you might understand where I was coming from better... as if it wasn't already on a billboard. [quote]To say that people that vote democratic are going against Church teaching and are wrong for doing so is wrong of you. [/quote] Why do the democrats always seem to say things about a republican that just are not true? A: Maybe because they're wrong. God Bless , ironmonk Edited November 10, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 im not a democrat just btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 To vote against private property or for high government involvement in economics is against Pope Leo XIII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Why would a person call themselves part of a party if they don't believe everything, or most of the things, that party stands for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Ironmonk, the attitude isn't necessary. When you speak against Democrats in general, you carry the banner of a type of hatred. If you want to speak against their platform, speak against their platform specifically. The more specific you get against which policies you don't like, the better your chances of not ticking people off. If you say that Democrats are ignorant or that the Democratic Party is ignorant, you call all Democrats ignorant. If you say that their platform is ignorant, you call all their policies ignorant, so it may be a little better, because at least you're not attacking the person, but it's still rude because it's highly improbable that they are wrong about everything. However, political parties run so deep in people's blood that even this is not wise and is considered terribly rude on a personal basis. If you attack the particular views of particular politicians, you make a better argument and avoid offending people. Sarcasm and bitterness, coupled with pride and anger, are not ways of achieving Christ's prayer for our unity in any areas. I have many Democratic friends who are pro-life and in line with Church teachings, I'm in love with one, and I am a Republican, but this hate is enough to make me Independent, if only I could still vote in primaries. Want to be a real Compassionate Conservative? Become compassionate. Want to be a real Catholic voter? Become charitable. Your anger and bitter partisanship only sow discord and drive people away from accepting your views. May God bless us all and draw us closer to Himself and may dUSt close this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Ironmonk, I happen to be a registered Democrat and as usual I resent your implications that all Democrats are evil. Thats like saying all Republicans are intelligent... People make sweeping generalizations until they grow up enough to learn all the exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 10 2004, 09:18 AM'] Ironmonk, I happen to be a registered Democrat and as usual I resent your implications that all Democrats are evil. Thats like saying all Republicans are intelligent... People make sweeping generalizations until they grow up enough to learn all the exceptions. [/quote] Here we go again, writing things that I DID NOT WRITE. The democratic party is evil... when someone writes "democratic party"... this implies national agenda.... the context that I wrote it in is obviously national agenda. If the republican party had the same national agenda as the democrat party, I would not be a republican... I would be ashamed of the title. I would be independant. To vote democrat after looking at the track record of 95% of the democrats that seek a national seat, is foolish. Almost all dems go from prolife to antilife when they seek a national seat. The democratic party of today is not the democatic party of 50 years ago... there are some democrats in the party with the proper mentallity of 50 years ago. And also, when people make generalization it IS NOT saying that about every democrat. Anyone that can think knows that a generalization is just that, a generalization and there is always exceptions to generalizations... this is common knowledge so does not need to be pointed out to those with an average IQ. Raphael, People get ticked because sometimes truth will do that. Some people can't stand being wrong. So if anyone here thinks I'm wrong PROVE IT, and I'll change my view.... until then I will stand by my statement that the [b]democratic party promotes evil. [/b][b]THIS IMPLIES NATIONAL LEVEL [/b]- THIS [u]IS NOT [/u]saying that every democrat is evil. I believe that any good people in the democratic party are there for good reasons and their party left them over 30 years ago. I believe that they believe the lies of the party. If the democratic party really wanted to help the poor, they would help the poor help themselves, not create dependency on welfare... there is one of two answers to why they want to create dependency on welfare.... 1.) They do so to use the poor to keep power. 2.) They have the right intention but they don't know how to fix the problems of the poor and have no business being in office. There was no bitterness and hate or pride or anger... if you read that, it's all in your head and that's your problem, not mine. There is NO partisanship and anyone who says that I am partisan HAS NO CLUE about me, it's a foolish statement. God Bless, ironmonk Edited November 10, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 If you know generalizations are inaccurate, stop making them, or qualify your statements. Annoyed people = reported posts= annoyed mods = edited, deleted or closed threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 10 2004, 03:08 AM'] Ironmonk, the attitude isn't necessary. When you speak against Democrats in general, you carry the banner of a type of hatred. If you want to speak against their platform, speak against their platform specifically. The more specific you get against which policies you don't like, the better your chances of not ticking people off. If you say that Democrats are ignorant or that the Democratic Party is ignorant, you call all Democrats ignorant. If you say that their platform is ignorant, you call all their policies ignorant, so it may be a little better, because at least you're not attacking the person, but it's still rude because it's highly improbable that they are wrong about everything. However, political parties run so deep in people's blood that even this is not wise and is considered terribly rude on a personal basis. If you attack the particular views of particular politicians, you make a better argument and avoid offending people. Sarcasm and bitterness, coupled with pride and anger, are not ways of achieving Christ's prayer for our unity in any areas. I have many Democratic friends who are pro-life and in line with Church teachings, I'm in love with one, and I am a Republican, but this hate is enough to make me Independent, if only I could still vote in primaries. Want to be a real Compassionate Conservative? Become compassionate. Want to be a real Catholic voter? Become charitable. Your anger and bitter partisanship only sow discord and drive people away from accepting your views. May God bless us all and draw us closer to Himself and may dUSt close this topic. [/quote] Be a man. People are going to get that type of post when they put words in my mouth. I'm tired of it. Why not point out to people that "he didn't post that" when they come up with some foolish statement like "To say that people that vote democratic are going against Church teaching and are wrong for doing so is wrong of you" When I didn't write that. Being compassionate does not mean that lessons cannot be taught with a little bluntness. It's funny how some here think it's ok that when someone with a leftist mind offends someone on the right it's ok... but God forbid that someone on the right is offended and actually responds in a way that merits the offensive post. There have been multiple times where someone from the left got in a big huff over something I didn't even post, and all the sudden I was the bad guy.... Come on people... it's time to start thinking before jumping on the "you should have frilly and flowery posts monk" bandwagon. Sometimes the truth is offensive. Sometimes people will get ticked. Sometimes people need to be offended. Sometimes people need to know the severity of the issue. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 LoL, isn't it too early for political debates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 10 2004, 10:51 AM'] If you know generalizations are inaccurate, stop making them, or qualify your statements. Annoyed people = reported posts= annoyed mods = edited, deleted or closed threads. [/quote] What I stated is not inaccurate...if it is, please show me how and I'll be happy to change my view. That is what debate is... people with different views debating and sometimes people will write things that someone doesn't like... Do you want to muffle that, or let people grow and learn from that? Maybe I was a little harsh... but I wanted to express how offensive it is to me when someone says I wrote something that I didn't. God Bless. ironmonk Edited November 10, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Ironmonk, you are correct. Sometimes the truth hurts. It is true that the official platform of the Democratic party has many evils on it, especially non-negotiables. That does not excuse making blanket statements about Democrats. It does not allow you to lack charity in your presentation of the facts. St. Paul knew that he had the truth and that Christianity presented the truth when he wrote: [quote]If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. -1 Corinthians 13[/quote] You may have true things to say, but you must be careful not to offend people when you say them. You must be fair and not make blanket statements and you must try to avoid scandalizing others. That is [b]your[/b] job to be careful and protect them from scandal and anger as well as it is theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 9 2004, 05:01 PM'] As a Republican against the death penalty, I can understand this. The general rules may be the the general rules, but in something that goes as deep down as political convictions, statements based on the general rules can hurt those who don't fit the general rules. [/quote] Against the death penalty? You do know the Church's teaching that the death penalty is good and necessary, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 10 2004, 12:49 PM'] Against the death penalty? You do know the Church's teaching that the death penalty is good and necessary, right? [/quote] Not in every society, it isn't. I know and abide by the Church's teachings on the death penalty. I know that it is sometimes necessary and good, but that it is most often unnecessary in our society, and where death is unnecessary, it is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 10 2004, 09:56 AM'] Be a man. People are going to get that type of post when they put words in my mouth. I'm tired of it. Why not point out to people that "he didn't post that" when they come up with some foolish statement like "To say that people that vote democratic are going against Church teaching and are wrong for doing so is wrong of you" When I didn't write that. Being compassionate does not mean that lessons cannot be taught with a little bluntness. It's funny how some here think it's ok that when someone with a leftist mind offends someone on the right it's ok... but God forbid that someone on the right is offended and actually responds in a way that merits the offensive post. There have been multiple times where someone from the left got in a big huff over something I didn't even post, and all the sudden I was the bad guy.... Come on people... it's time to start thinking before jumping on the "you should have frilly and flowery posts monk" bandwagon. Sometimes the truth is offensive. Sometimes people will get ticked. Sometimes people need to be offended. Sometimes people need to know the severity of the issue. God Bless. [/quote] I had to go to class earlier and could not refute everything I wanted to. 1. I am a man. A true man abides by the law of God, and the fulfilment of that law is love. I love and I go the extra mile to make sure that people know that what I say and do is out of love, lest they be scandalized. Regardless of what you posted verbatim, you need to understand that what we post is not always read that way and it is easy to misinterpret something, especially over the internet. All people have the job of making sure that what they do, even if it is intrinsically right, does not come across scandalizing others. For instance, God's original plan for mankind included us as innocently nude. Our bodies are intrinsically good, but we wear clothing, at least in part, because it is good to go the extra distance to keep others from scandal. I am a man, a real man, because I can treat the truth with charity. Charity does not weaken the Gospel message nor any truth, but instead strengthens it by proving that we are not hypocrites. 2. I would gladly point out what you did and did not say, but that will not fix the problem. The issue isn't with what you said, it's with how you said it. I don't believe that you meant to clump people like Jen (StColette) into one great indistinguishable mass with people like John Kerry as an unbeliever or a heretic or a wicked person. Nor did you in your speech, as far as a word for word analysis goes. You did, however, come across as implying it, and you must even be careful of that. You did, however, insult what grouping already exists and you insulted it in blanket statements: [quote] Anytime a democrat seeks national office, they change to meet their party's evil agenda.[/quote] You essentially called all democratic candidates evil backstabbers. What about Zell Miller? When you call all democratic candidates evil, that sort of filters down by association to those who voted for them, who would logically, in your mind, be guilty of supporting evil. [quote]The current democrat party should be charged for murder, treason, and crimes against humanity.[/quote] When you say this, you include every democrat. This is comparable to those anti-Catholics who said that the whole Church is evil, should be suppressed, etc., because of the sins of a few priests. God was willing to spare the city of Sodom for the sake of ten righteous men. I am certain there are more than ten righteous men in the democratic party. [quote]The same cannot be said about Republicans... the propaganda that has been perpetuated by the left that the republican party is for the rich is nothing more than a lie. The left saying that the republican party is against the poor is another lie.[/quote] I agree, but that doesn't mean that all democrats are behind the lies or know that they are lies. That doesn't mean that all democrats are wicked. That doesn't mean that all democrats simply prefer their economic plans, for instance, because they believe in good faith that they are best. Neither party is perfect. [quote]I hated the government when I was younger because of all the lies I saw. Then, I started seeing who lied... paying attention to who had the mindless policies... then I realized that I didn't hate the government... I hated the democratic party... they stand against God.[/quote] No, a lot of the talking heads in the DP lie. You have to understand that the current leadership of the DP leans much farther left than the average democrat. [quote]Really... gosh... I didn't know that... I mean aren't all republicans pro life and pro family??? I was told they were??? Wait, let me reread what I wrote.... Oh, here is your delima... I was writing about national party agendas.. hmmm... I wonder how you put things there that was not. LOL[/quote] Then you used sarcasm. Even I was hurt reading this. Do you really think sarcasm helps to keep the Body of Christ whole? [quote]Why do the democrats always seem to say things about a republican that just are not true? A: Maybe because they're wrong.[/quote] Finally, you make statements simply to shock and vilify for your amusement. 3. You said that "being compassionate does not mean that lessons cannot be taught with a little bluntness." I respond to you that teaching with a little bluntness doesn't mean teaching with a lot of insult. 4. Ironmonk, you are right. Many times there are people on the left who insult us greatly. However, once again, this does not make it a right to assume that all people on the left are evil, wicked, misguided, or otherwise damned to Hell. Trust me, the Sacred Heart feels greatly torn by this anger and discord among His people. Jesus weeps over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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