I am PRO-LIFE..... but

[sparcle318]

I grew up in a very catholic family. We always went to church every sunday, and they continue to do so even though i do not live at home anymore. I grew up in a family with my mother working as a teacher in poor neighborhoods because she felt they needed good teachers the most(she now is a supervisor at an inner city early childhood education center for disabled preschool and kindergardeners), and my father working for the state with welfare, child care, food stamps. They both have extreme awareness of so many government funded programs that were and continue to be underfunded, and so many social justice issues that they passionately support. I have been raised and grown up to know how lucky i am and how important it is to take care of those less fortunate for me. I was and am still today one of the few people i know with a family that usually votes for the democratic party. I am very much pro-life. I am very much against all violations of the many laws that contradict this stance. I voted for George W. Bush this last election because of my stance on these issues, and I have borderline regreted it.

It is my belief as a Roman Catholic that you should vote for who you truly feel all around will do the best for ALL of the issues and decisions that have to be made in this country.I'm pretty sure that everyone reading this will agree with me on that point. Yes, I know and believe with all of my heart that voting for a pro-choice candidate simply because of or in support of his beliefs on the many important issues(openly or privately) is seriously wrong and sinful, but if a Roman Catholic with a very convicted heart comes forward against the crowd and votes for a pro-choice candidate because he feels that other moral issues out weigh abortion then he is noble for that.
A good example of one of these people is my mother. I ask her how she could possibly vote for someone that believed that it was pro-choice, and she had huge tears in her eyes while attempting to answer the question not just because of my question but because of how hurt she had been by the opinions of fellow Catholics and Christians about this election. She would never have an abortion, and strongly opposes it. She said that she wants nothing more than to have the option to vote for a candidate that would fight the battle for all of the moral issues in our government. Unfortunately there is not a candidate like this. We are all people, and politicians are definately not Jesus.

With tears running down her face she said in a very calm voice:

" I don't vote just for me or my stance on pro-life issues..... i vote for the children that i love so much at my school that are only able to get an education, medical attention, and even be alive because of government funded programs. i vote for you, your brother, sister, and everyone else that dreams of going to college that it becomes and continues to be a tangible dream. i vote for my job that i dont loose my job because of lack of funding(you know that anytime she has ever gotten a raise it has been because of a tax increase, and my parents have to pay taxes too so it basically just pays for the increase in taxes). I vote for your Dad's job and that his job doesnt become eliminated because there was not enough funding.(my father comes home stressed out everyday because the lack of funding in the state budgets only allows about half of the workers for the amount of work that has to get done and the same situation with raises is true with my dad). I vote for your grandmother that social security continues to be available for her because that is what she has lived off of since your grandfather died. I vote so none of my children have to go to war, and so our soldiers can come home. I vote for a pro-choice candidate because there are so many moral issues i am convicted to support that can and need to be addressed that the average middle class or upper middle class or any other class of catholic or christian is not even aware exists.
I vote because it's my moral obligation, and I wish that everyone would respect my stance on this election without telling me how unpatriotic, sinful, and ignorant i am being."


We had this discussion the night before this election, but because she totally threw off everything that my friends away at school had told me about what the "Catholic vote was" and even this website I voted for what was most comfortable which was George W. Bush. But I feel that many Catholics did a huge disservice to their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ by making this election a one issue campaign. I personally felt very alone and pursecuted by my fellow Catholic peers without ever having to voice an opinion about any political issue in defense of my family, and because of this negative peer pressure I felt very disappointed in myself for voting for a candidate that i wasnt and am not sure if i currently believe in my heart to be the best for our country as a whole.


This is from a website (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04295/399299.stm) i found that worded part of what im trying to say very well:

[b]"A candidate for office must understand that the Church stands against any policy or course of action which diminishes life, dignity or the rights of the human person: abortion, capital punishment, war, scandalous poverty, denial of health care, mistreatment of immigrants and racism to name but a few. All are essential issues to a 'pro-life' voter."[/b]


I personally don't think that Jesus would be a democrat or a republican. He is has never been and is not a conformist. I know that it is in Him that we find this passion about these issues and about making America such wonderful home for our families under God. I feel confident that He would change our society to be in TOTAL truth, and he would not just make all pro-life issues a vital part of our government. He would love all of his children, not be a afraid to tick people off, end corruption, and he would know all of the right answers. But this is not heaven. We do not know all of the right answers. We are imperfect people.

"There is certainly nothing doctrinal about voting for Kerry or voting for [President] Bush, but when you listen to some of the statements of some of the bishops, it seems like doctrine,"

It is not my intent to disregard or discredit anyone's political stance because I am very glad that you are passionate enough to have one, but I would ask that you have an open mind by not judging someone's reasoning behind a political standing or tell them that they are not "Catholic enough" or that they are sinning because they believe just as strongly and passionatly about a different issue, possibly enough to vote against the one that you are voting for. We are one body, one church, and all very different beautiful people with different views, personalities, and experiences. Praise God for those differences! Praise God for our many blessings.
I ask that we pray for our government, our Church, and that we remember to pray for God's will to be done instead of our own.

Peace in Christ,
Amy

[cmotherofpirl]

""A candidate for office must understand that the Church stands against any policy or course of action which diminishes life, dignity or the rights of the human person: abortion, capital punishment, war, scandalous poverty, denial of health care, mistreatment of immigrants and racism to name but a few. All are essential issues to a 'pro-life' voter."


THis however is not Catholic teaching. Capital punishment, war, scandalous poverty, denial of health care, mistreatment of immigrants and racism are NOT equally weighted with the crime of Abortion. The Right to Life is paramount over ALL other issues.
Your job, your education, and your medical benefits do NOT stack up against human life. They don't now and never will.
If you don't have the [i]Right to Live[/i], none of these other things matter.


I am sorry your mom is hurt and offended by this, or that you are. But the truth doesn't change even if we don't like it. You cannot do evil in the hopes good will come of it.

[sparcle318]

[quote]I am sorry your mom is hurt and offended by this, or that you are. But the truth doesn't change even if we don't like it. You cannot do evil in the hopes good will come of it.
[/quote]


How did we go from debating political issues to voting against 1 particular candidate as not expecting good to come out of "doing evil".

Please visit the website : [url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm[/url]

.... but it is from directly from an artical called "Faithful Citizenship:A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility" from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

"At this time, some Catholics may feel politically
homeless, sensing that no political party and too
few candidates share a consistent concern for
human life and dignity. However, this is not a
time for retreat or discouragement. We need
more, not less engagement in political life. We
urge Catholics to become more involved."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 3


"A Catholic moral framework does not easily fit
the ideologies of “right” or “left,” nor the platforms
of any party. Our values are often not
“politically correct.” Believers are called to be
a community of conscience within the larger
society and to test public life by the values of
Scripture and the principles of Catholic social
teaching. Our responsibility is to measure all
candidates, policies, parties, and platforms by
how they protect or undermine the life, dignity,
and rights of the human person, whether they
protect the poor and vulnerable and advance
the common good."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 7

"As bishops, we seek to form the consciences of
our people. We do not wish to instruct persons
on how they should vote by endorsing or
opposing candidates. We hope that voters will
examine the position of candidates on the full
range of issues, as well as on their personal
integrity, philosophy, and performance. We are
convinced that a consistent ethic of life should
be the moral framework from which to address
issues in the political arena."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 11

"The coming elections provide important
opportunities to bring together our principles,
experience, and community in effective public
witness. . . . As Catholics we need to share our
values, raise our voices, and use our votes to
shape a society that protects human life, promotes
family life, pursues social justice, and
practices solidarity."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 12

"Building peace, combating poverty and despair,
and protecting freedom and human rights are
not only moral imperatives; they are wise
national priorities. Given its enormous power
and influence in world affairs, the United States
has a special responsibility to ensure that it is a
force for justice and peace beyond its borders.
“Liberty and justice for all” is not only a profound
national pledge; it is a worthy goal for
our nation in its role as world leader."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 28

"This dual calling of faith and citizenship is at
the heart of what it means to be a Catholic in
the United States. Faithful citizenship calls us to
seek “a place at the table” of life for all God’s
children in the elections of 2004 and beyond."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 30

"


If you have a problem with what this is saying then that is fine, but as a young person attempting to find peace with the ANSWER to a question of what the CATHOLIC view is (not an opinion backed up w/ quotes from the bible and such because i do agree FULLY that anything but pro-life is morally right). Please someone find something from the Vatican or the Pope himself about what the correct view is on politics in this specific election.

Peace in Christ,
Amy

[cmotherofpirl]

The Church doesn't endorse candidates or elections, but the Church does endorse Life.

Abortion trumps all other issues, because without life, all over values are meaningless.

EVANGELIUM VITAE (The Gospel of Life)
Pope John Paul II

read sections 60 -74

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM#Intro"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM#Intro[/url]

You cannot vote for a candidate who is pro-abortion if there is another alternative. We had one - President Bush.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

It's over.


Let it go.

[Brother Adam]

If you vote for Kerry you ARE NOT PRO-LIFE whether you like it or not.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Nov 9 2004, 09:45 AM'] It's over.


Let it go. [/quote]
May Primaries are 6 months away.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 9 2004, 08:44 AM']
You cannot vote for a candidate who is pro-abortion if there is another alternative. [/quote]
Tangent:

That includes Arlen Specter .

[cmotherofpirl]

That is another discussion we can have by email.

[popestpiusx]

I can't use the e-mail function on here cause I am not be trusted with such a grave responsibility (I'm phishy). You'll have to e-mail me.

[toledo_jesus]

I wish more people went by the numbers.
4000 abortions a day, 1.3 million per year, 40 odd million (40,000,000) deaths since Roe v. Wade...most for convenience rather than because of rape or health reasons
1200 US troops in 19 months of operations in Iraq, civilian casualties may number in the hundred thousands from the war on terror.
432 prisoners executed from 1977 to 1999 in the US

Maybe your mother would feel less conflicted if she took a look at the numbers and weighed them out proportionately.
"I vote because it's my moral obligation" What does that mean? Does it mean that she is only concerned with those children who were lucky enough to not be aborted? What about the basic right to live? You can't rationalize this. People are right to speak against her vote for a pro-baby killing candidate. We have a real moral obligation to vote for a candidate who will do the most good, or the least evil. Bush will do the least evil. Anybody who rationalizes abortion has bought in to the argument that the child is just a blob of tissue and not a person.

[Ash Wednesday]

A vote for Bush in my book was less of a vote for Bush and more of a protest vote against the Democratic party. I think all Americans want similar things, but what many of us are, as a people, craving so badly is a return to traditional family values after years of decline. I hope and pray my years of protest voting will pay off and the Dems will listen. They are NOT the party of the underdog they used to be. They are Hollywood fringe leftist liberals that are completely out of touch and hold a great deal of scorn towards "flyover country" -- that is to say, the United States of America. [b]Their hatred and elitism has backfired and they get exactly what they deserve.[/b]

Even Hitler provided economic wellness in his country. But if everyone knew then what they know now how many people he exterminated, they would never allow him back to power because such activity can not be rewarded with political support if it can be helped.

Kerry has never flip-flopped on one thing -- the barbaric and medically unnecessary practice that is partial-birth abortion. He even refused the advice of Clinton -- [b]Clinton![/b] -- when he told Kerry to back the swing state gay marriage bans. What kind of a Catholic is that, and why should we have rewarded him with our vote?

We vote with facts, not "feelings."

[azaelia]

If there's one thing i can't stand, it's the phrase "I'm Pro-Life...BUT" You're either pro-life, or not. There's no in between when the lives of 4400 unborn babies are at stake each day...1.3 million a year...in the US alone! There's no gray area when discussing abortion, you're either for it or against it. There is no "BUT".

If the rest of the world would realize this, the Pro-Life movement might have a better chance.

[God Conquers]

People killed in the womb don't even get to choose to become criminals, impoverished, involved in conflict, immigrants, sick or hungry.

Giving them that chance - life must be our first priority, then we can fix the problems they face later in life.

[sparcle318]

[quote]Maybe your mother would feel less conflicted if she took a look at the numbers and weighed them out proportionately.
[b]"I vote because it's my moral obligation" What does that mean?[/b][quote]

no that's not what that means..... it's what the catholic bishops said about the election in general.  That it was not and is not the Catholic Church's place to tell someone what candidate that should vote for, but instead to tell every Catholic that they are called to vote.  They are called to educate themselves on all of the issues, be prayerful about it, and vote their consciences.


[/quote]Does it mean that she is only concerned with those children who were lucky enough to not be aborted? [quote]

No that is not what she is saying, but it also important to care about the children that are alive. They are both important.

[/quote]What about the basic right to live?[quote]

This includes people that are alive as well!  This includes everyone.  How can you fight for the unborn and against those same children a few months later?  There is party that does both very well, and there are many problems with our government that need to be fixed.  Neither party or candidate is completely right on these issues.

[/quote]You can't rationalize this. People are right to speak against her vote for a pro-baby killing candidate.[quote]

In your opinion, but I disagree and your opinion is different than that of the USCCB.

"As bishops, we seek to form the consciences our people.
We do not wish to instruct persons
on how they should vote by endorsing or
opposing candidates. We hope that voters will
examine the position of candidates on the full
range of issues, as well as on their personal
integrity, philosophy, and performance. We are
convinced that a consistent ethic of life should
be the moral framework from which to address
issues in the political arena."
—USCCB Administrative Committee,
Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to
Political Responsibility, p. 11



[/quote]We have a real moral obligation to vote for a candidate who will do the most good, or the least evil.[quote]

what makes your personal opinion of which candidate this is superior to the next guy?  How can you judge someone else's opinions and convictions of voting for the person they feel will do the most good, or the least evil?  Roe v. Wade most likely will not be overturned in the next 4 years, and there is a good possibility that living, struggling families and many other people's rights and situations will be negatively affected by very real and possible changes that will be made within the next 4 years under our current president on many many issues.  It is important to remember the difference situations people bring to the polls.

[/quote]Bush will do the least evil.[quote]

Again this is your opinion.  It is not an objective viewpoint or even respectful to accuse someone of being immoral because they disagree with this opinion.

[/quote]Anybody who rationalizes abortion has bought in to the argument that the child is just a blob of tissue and not a person.
[/quote]

I agree. I am not nor will i ever "buy into the arguement that a child is just a blob of tissue and not a person". Abortion is worth fighting against. I have, and will continue to do so, but that does not mean that there are not other issues to fight as well. This is a very very important one, something the republican party values and believes in very strongly, but there are other things that need to be faught for as well. It is my opinion that a lot of these tangible issues are more likely to be things that can be changed now. That is an important fight as well.