Sacraments

[FiZzGiG]

As some of you may know, I was debating with a Protestant about salvation. Well this debating was on another message board (predominantly Protestant), and some person just sort of scooted into the debate. And they really ruffled a few of my feathers, so I feel the need to ruffle a few of their's.

"Ruffling feathers?!" you say. Yes, my friends. YES. Here's a quote:

[i]I hate to break it to those of you who value ecumenisism, but By-The-Book Catholics are not Christians. It goes beyond the doctrine of saved by faith and works. It's the idea that the church is the ADMINISTRATOR of salvation (I used to be Catholic incidentally). The Catechism teaches that salvation is acquired through the receiving of the Sacraments. You have to receive Eucharist every week, you have to be confirmed and baptized. And it has to be the Catholic way. These are anti-biblical, anti-God heresies that endanger the souls of millions of people. It is spiritually dangerous even to compromise with them and "agree to disagree".[/i]

Feel free to write a nice, educated (yet. erm... forceful ) response to this. Mine's probably gonna be too long. Or maybe just mixed up, because I was pretty angry when I read it. Calling Catholicism "spiritually dangerous".... geez!!

But also, what I really wanted to ask is if the Church teaches that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation. I found several passages in the Catechism showing that the Church in and of itself is not the necessity for salvation--the Mother Church is brings about our faith life. The problem is that I also found that under "IV. The Sacraments of Salvation" section 1129 that "the Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation."

Are the "believers" all believers in Christ, or just believers in the sacraments? What are the sacraments of the new Covenant?

I just wanna show this person that the Church doesn't base it's whole system on only the Sacraments (although they are vital). It's based around Christ!

Oh ya, and I need to show all this is anti-biblical. Haha, I know it's a lot, but man... I can't stand posts like this. Plus, this person was previously Catholic! That's what makes it sad. I feel like I should bring him back.


HELP PEEPS!!


Pax,
~Kerry~

[phatcatholic]

i will write a reply when i get home from Church. until then, try to remain calm. fight the urge to let posts like this make you angry. a post made in anger is never effective

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[FiZzGiG]

haha, no worries! I managed to keep the anger in check
Actually, I wrote a whole response, but then decided not to post it b/c i felt i needed more research/evidence.
Which is why i asked about it here!

Besides it was late... i wasn't thinking normally
Remind me not to post things when it's that late...

[Benedict]

A real quick one:


[quote]It's the idea that the church is the ADMINISTRATOR of salvation[/quote]
The Church is the body of Christ, the author of salvation. Is there any doubt that Christ administers salvation through His body, the Church, on earth? Christ left a Church to teach, to preach, to safeguard His flock until His return.

[quote](I used to be Catholic incidentally).[/quote]
Should that matter?

[quote]The Catechism teaches that salvation is acquired through the receiving of the Sacraments.[/quote]
The Catechism teaches that salvation is through grace which comes by faith that works. The Sacraments are means established by Christ through which God chooses to dispense His grace to the believer.

[quote]You have to receive Eucharist every week,[/quote]
Catholics only *have* to receive the Eucharist once a year, during Easter. However, considering why the Eucharist was established by Christ and all the benefits thereof, believers should seek to receive the Eucharist every week, if not every day.

[quote]you have to be confirmed and baptized.[/quote]
You have to be baptized (John 3:5) but not necessarily confirmed. Once again, though, considering that Christ gave us the sacraments for our benefit, it is wise to avail ourselves of them.

[quote]And it has to be the Catholic way.[/quote]
The Catholic way is Trinitarian. Those who are baptized by the LDS Church or a Unitarian church are not baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19), so their baptism stands outside the Biblical model.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Nov 7 2004, 02:19 AM'] I hate to break it to those of you who value ecumenisism, but By-The-Book Catholics are not Christians. [/quote]
if "the book" in question is the Bible, then i'm proud to be a "by-the-book Catholic" anyway, this guy's post is FILLED w/ accusations w/o proof. opinions mean nothing w/o proof, so always ask him to back up his claims.


[quote]It goes beyond the doctrine of saved by faith and works. It's the idea that the church is the ADMINISTRATOR of salvation[/quote]
proof please....

also, he falsely assumes here that the church's role in salvation is in opposition to the role of Jesus. but this is not an either/or proposition. Jesus is the administrator of salvation, and the Church is His instrument. THAT is what catholics believe. from the Catechism:

[b]15 [/b]The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

as the Catechism reveals, the Church is the Body of Christ, made present on earth. also, from Scripture:

[b]Eph 1:22-23[/b]
[b]22 [/b]and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church,
[b]23 [/b]which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.

[b]Eph 5:23 [/b]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

[b]Col 1: 18,24[/b]
[b]18 [/b]He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. ....
[b]24 [/b]Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church


[quote](I used to be Catholic incidentally). [/quote]
this lends him little credibility, as do his faulty assumptions about Catholicism


[quote]The Catechism teaches that salvation is acquired through the receiving of the Sacraments. You have to receive Eucharist every week, you have to be confirmed and baptized. And it has to be the Catholic way. These are anti-biblical, anti-God heresies that endanger the souls of millions of people. It is spiritually dangerous even to compromise with them and "agree to disagree".[/quote]
but he hasn't given any proof that the reception of the sacraments for salvation is an anti-biblical or anti-God "heresy." how can they be anti-God when God is the very source of it all? the Church is HIS body, and the grace we receive flows from HIS very death and resurrection.

this of course, is quite biblical:
[b]--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html"]Baptism[/url]
--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/confession.html"]Confession[/url]
--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html"]Eucharist[/url]
--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/confirmation.html"]Confirmation[/url]
--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/divorce_remarriage.html"]Marriage[/url]
--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html"]Holy Orders[/url]
--[url="http://scripturecatholic.com/anointing_of_the_sick.html"]Anointing of the Sick[/url][/b]


now, on to your comments:

[quote]But also, what I really wanted to ask is if the Church teaches that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation. I found several passages in the Catechism showing that the Church in and of itself is not the necessity for salvation--the Mother Church is brings about our faith life. The problem is that I also found that under "IV. The Sacraments of Salvation" section 1129 that "the Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation."[/quote]
well, i think its important here to distinguish between two kinds of necessity: normative and absolute. An [i]absolute necessity[/i] is a necessity which holds in all cases with no exceptions. A [i]normative necessity[/i] is usually required, though there are exceptions. this distinction is often made when discussing salvation outside of the Catholic Church (for example, [url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/necessit.htm"][b]here[/b][/url]), but it is a worthwhile distinction in this case as well.

since the Church states that the sacraments are necessary for salvation (CCC [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1129.htm"][b]1129[/b][/url]) while at the same time acknowledging that individuals of other faiths can be saved (CCC [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/847.htm"][b]847[/b][/url]), this can only mean that the sacraments are of [i]normative[/i] necessity. this means that Christ has established the sacraments as the normal or intended way w/ which to give us the grace that saves us. however, individuals can be and are saved by the exceptional movements of God, for the Church likewise affirms that God is not bound by his sacraments (CCC [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1257.htm"][b]1257[/b][/url]).


[quote]Are the "believers" all believers in Christ, or just believers in the sacraments? What are the sacraments of the new Covenant?[/quote]
well, since we have established that the necessity referred to in CCC 1129 is normative, the "believers" also mentioned would be all those who utilize the seven sacraments as the normal way to reveive God's grace (Catholics, Greek Orthodox, possibly Anglicans).

the "sacraments of the new covenant" are the seven sacraments of the Church. again, from the Catechism (emphasis mine):

[b]1114 [/b]"Adhering to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures, to the apostolic traditions, and to the consensus . . . of the Fathers," we profess that [i][b]"the sacraments of the new law were . . . all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord."[/b][/i]31

[b]1115 [/b]Jesus' words and actions during his hidden life and public ministry were already salvific, for they anticipated the power of his Paschal mystery. They announced and prepared what he was going to give the Church when all was accomplished. The mysteries of Christ's life are the foundations of what he would henceforth dispense in the sacraments, through the ministers of his Church, for "what was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."32

[b]1116 [/b][i][b]Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.[/b] [/i]

[b]1117 [/b]As she has done for the canon of Sacred Scripture and for the doctrine of the faith, the Church, by the power of the Spirit who guides her "into all truth," has gradually recognized this treasure received from Christ and, as the faithful steward of God's mysteries, has determined its "dispensation."34 Thus the Church has discerned over the centuries that among liturgical celebrations [i][b]there are seven that are, in the strict sense of the term, sacraments instituted by the Lord.[/b][/i]


i hope this helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited November 7, 2004 by phatcatholic