church and gun control

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 11 2004, 05:54 PM'] Have you ever went shooting at targets?

Can one love skateboarding, skiing, a game, computers, football, baseball, phatmass, etc...?

Then one can have a reason to love guns.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
No, not according to St. Augustine.

On Christian Doctrine, I, IV

For to enjoy a thing is to rest with satisfaction in it for its own sake. To use, on the other hand, is to employ whatever means are at one's disposal to obtain what one desires, if it is a proper object of desire; for an unlawful use ought rather to be called an abuse. Suppose, then, we were wanderers in a strange country, and could not live happily away from our fatherland, and that we felt wretched in our wandering, and wishing to put an end to our misery, determined to return home. We find, however, that we must make use of some mode of conveyance, either by land or water, in order to reach that fatherland where our enjoyment is to commence. But the beauty of the country through which we pass, and the very pleasure of the motion, charm our hearts, and turning these things which we ought to use into objects of enjoyment, we become unwilling to hasten the end of our journey; and becoming engrossed in a factitious delight, our thoughts are diverted from that home whose delights would make us truly happy. Such is a picture of our condition in this life of mortality. We have wandered far from God; and if we wish to return to our Father's home, this world must be used, not enjoyed, that so the invisible things of God may be clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,- that is, that by means of what is material and temporary we may lay hold upon that which is spiritual and eternal.

[cmotherofpirl]

I am so glad he was not infallible. I am beginning not to like this guy.


I love my kids, my garden and my pets. I love watching NASCAR.

We can enjoy this world on our way to the next. We can see the things God made for us here as a reminder of what is to come if we hold out til our end.

Are you trying to tell me you love nothing in this world?

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 26 2004, 09:56 AM'] I am so glad he was not infallible. I am beginning not to like this guy.


I love my kids, my garden and my pets. I love watching NASCAR.

We can enjoy this world on our way to the next. We can see the things God made for us here as a  reminder of what is to come if we hold out til our end.

Are you trying to tell me you love nothing in this world? [/quote]
That's because you are attached to the world. Is it not a sign that everytime you read something from a DOCTOR of the Church that you disagree with, you say: he is not infallible, as if you know better than a Doctor of the Church? A Doctor is one for a reason: his works are a foundation for Catholic doctrine; no, he is not infallible, but he surely knows a lot more about salvation and how to obtain it (since he already has done so) than you do.

As far as loving others (e.g. your children), he also speaks of that in On Christian Doctrine (I, XXII):

Among all these things, then, those only are the true objects of enjoyment which we have spoken of as eternal and unchangeable. The rest are for use, that we may be able to arrive at the full enjoyment of the former. We, however, who enjoy and use other things are things ourselves. For a great thing truly is man, made after the image and similitude of God, not as respects the mortal body in which he is clothed, but as respects the rational soul by which he is exalted in honour above the beasts. And so it becomes an important question, whether men ought to enjoy, or to use, themselves, or to do both. For we are commanded to love one another: but it is a question whether man is to be loved by man for his own sake, or for the sake of something else. If it is for his own sake, we enjoy him; if it is for the sake of something else, we use him. It seems to me, then, that he is to be loved for the sake of something else. For if a thing is to be loved for its own sake, then in the enjoyment of it consists a happy life, the hope of which at least, if not yet the reality, is our comfort in the present time. But a curse is pronounced on him who places his hope in man. Neither ought any one to have joy in himself, if you look at the matter clearly, because no one ought to love even himself for his own sake, but for the sake of Him who is the true object of enjoyment. For a man is never in so good a state as when his whole life is a journey towards the unchangeable life, and his affections are entirely fixed upon that. If, however, he loves himself for his own sake, he does not look at himself in relation to God, but turns his mind in upon himself, and so is not occupied with anything that is unchangeable. And thus he does not enjoy himself at his best, because he is better when his mind is fully fixed upon, and his affections wrapped up in, the unchangeable good, than when he turns from that to enjoy even himself. Wherefore if you ought not to love even yourself for your own sake, but for His in whom your love finds its most worthy object, no other man has a right to be angry if you love him too for God's sake. For this is the law of love that has been laid down by Divine authority: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;" but, "Thou shalt love God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind:" so that you are to concentrate all your thoughts, your whole life, and your whole intelligence upon Him from whom you derive all that you bring. For when He says, "With all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," He means that no part of our life is to be unoccupied, and to afford room, as it were, for the wish to enjoy some other object, but that whatever else may suggest itself to us as an object worthy of love is to be borne into the same channel in which the whole current of our affections flows. Whoever, then, loves his neighbour aright, ought to urge upon him that he too should love God with his whole heart, and soul, and mind. For in this way, loving his neighbour as himself, a man turns the whole current of his love both for himself and his neighbour into the channel of the love of God, which suffers no stream to be drawn off from itself by whose diversion its own volume would be diminished.

Edited November 26, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[drewmeister2]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 6 2004, 10:17 PM'] What "gun control" people fail to realize is that it is not the people who want guns legally that we have to worry about.

The problem is not guns or gun control... the problem is criminals. Criminals will always have access to illegal guns. They will always get them one way or another.

How about knife control? There are many more stabbings than there are shootings. We need knife control now... we should make it illegal to sell knives and even have knives! There is no reason why anyone would need a knife, they just use them to kill people anyway! Look at 9/11, terrorist took the plane with box cutters! Anyone can pick up a box cutter at almost any department store or hardware store! The sky is falling!

Shooting is fun. People who get guns the legal way, no matter what type of gun are not the people we need to worry about. To cry gun control, when there already is plenty of gun control is foolish.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
In a sense, I believe you are right. But if America had better ways of stopping criminals from getting guns illegally, then gun control might be effective. But it is almost impossible because of the lack of enforcement. Gun control, and laws in general, can only work if enforced properly. We probably, first of all, need to enforce the laws we have now, and then, if needed, create more laws, and enforce them.

Knives should never be made illegal! They have plenty of good uses. If we get rid of knives, how would we cut things that scissors dont cut? Blow of the thing that needs to be cut with a gun? lol The same applies to knives as guns. I am an Eagle Scout, and knife safety was often stressed. They are good to learn how to use properly. We need to enforce the laws we have now for knives as well. The reason that 9-11 happened was because, once again, America wasn't enforcing the laws we already had. If people had done their job in the first place, and thoroughly checked people for things like knives, 9-11 would have never happened.

[popestpiusx]

Catholic Crusader and Cmom,

The Crux of your argument is really a problem inherent in the english language's term "love" which is terribly inadequate and ambiguous. Latin and Greek both have several terms that denote the various levels of loves and likes but all get translated into english as "love". So inorder to sort out your little spat here, why don't you both define your terms.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]The reason that 9-11 happened was because, once again, America wasn't enforcing the laws we already had. If people had done their job in the first place, and thoroughly checked people for things like knives, 9-11 would have never happened.

[/quote]

Actually carrying box cutters on to planes was not illegal at that time, still Guns have many good uses, the most important of which is the use of defending the innocent, it is not that there should be more gun control there should be less gun control, every man who is free to walk that streets should be armed, and if he cannot afforda weapon one should be provided for him, Switzerland is one of the most heavily armed society in the world and has almost no violent crime, Israel is also has an extremely heavly armed populous and nonpolitical violent crime is rare there. Our founders invisioned a society where every free man ( this included former prisoners this idea that ones debt is never repayed is a new one) would be armed with a modern weapon and be regularly trained to use it, that idea comes not from secularism but from the Catholic States of the Middle Ages, where all free men where armed... it is one of their few truely great ideas, obviously they stole it but if your going to steal ideas steal from the best---Catholic Civilization is a good place to start.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:29 PM'] Catholic Crusader and Cmom,

The Crux of your argument is really a problem inherent in the english language's term "love" which is terribly inadequate and ambiguous. Latin and Greek both have several terms that denote the various levels of loves and likes but all get translated into english as "love". So inorder to sort out your little spat here, why don't you both define your terms. [/quote]
I know dearie, I just wanted to see if I got a real answer or more cut and paste.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 26 2004, 05:29 PM'] I know dearie, I just wanted to see if I got a real answer or more cut and paste. [/quote]
St. Augustine can say it in better terms than I or you. And, as my brother has said, you are the Queen of C&P, which is very true... either way, your only argument is: I don't like St. Augustine. Well, on Judgment Day maybe he won't like you either, and he'll tell St. Peter to close the gate on you. That's your decision for breaking the First and Second Commandments--by speaking ill of a Holy Man, a Saint canonized by the Church, one work of whose far surpasses all the knowledge of you or I or Phatmass combined. Yet you still seem to think you know better than he does.

PSPX, St. Augustine defined the terms in I, IV of the work I cited: "For to enjoy a thing is to rest with satisfaction in it for its own sake. To use, on the other hand, is to employ whatever means are at one's disposal to obtain what one desires, if it is a proper object of desire; for an unlawful use ought rather to be called an abuse."

To enjoy something for its own sake is for God alone, as I believe St. Thomas Aquinas put it: I love my neighbour as myself for love of Thee (not for his own sake).

[popestpiusx]

So what's your argument? Pitch me a summary please.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 27 2004, 12:59 AM'] And, as my brother has said, you are the Queen of C&P [/quote]
:rotfl:

[Winchester]

Hey, why not?

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312221667' post='2279766']
Hey, why not?
[/quote]

I thought we did this again like a month ago? but sure, why not? It's better then most of the debates we've had recently.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312222176' post='2279773']

I thought we did this again like a month ago? but sure, why not? It's better then most of the debates we've had recently.
[/quote]
No it isn't.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312222870' post='2279783']
No it isn't.
[/quote]

why must you be so mean

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312223167' post='2279789']

why must you be so mean
[/quote]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfuWXRZe9yA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfuWXRZe9yA[/url]

I accidentally too many media.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Winchester