CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote]You argue too much.[/quote] I don't think it's possible to argue with error too much. [quote]You are correct in saying that murder is always wrong, and in the instances you mentioned killing is Just, but it is also grave, or a serious matter. [/quote] Grave matter means that it is mortally sinful if one has full consent and sufficient reflection. Therefore, it would not be grave matter. [quote]Killing, even of animals in an ontological evil, or malum, though it is not moral evil to Kill animals. [/quote] Was the sacrifice of the Old Law an evil, too? [quote]The Life of a Human being is so precious, that even if it is just and maybe in a merciful to kill them, it is still sad, and bad in a way.[/quote] It's not bad. The Council of Trent says it is in paramount obedience. Moreover, only something wrong can be bad. And all wrongdoing is sin (I St. John v. 16, 17). [quote]If you ever feel like talking in a charitable way, I am sure that we could get a long. In fact some times I think, as in this case you are dead on, but you speak with such hostility. When the son's of Thurder asked Jesus to, Jesus did not, but instead loved.[/quote] Hostility to error, yes. That is not uncharitable. Moreover, Christ flipped tables--that seems to be something the "don't call a spade a spade" new evangelization misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote]There are on record instances of carnage executed by the special command of God. The sons of Levi, who put to death so many thousands in one day, were guilty of no sin; when the slaughter had ceased, they were addressed by Moses in these words: You have consecrated your hands this day to the Lord." [i]Althogh a certain amount of hyberbolic allogory is encouraged by the Church in the reading of these verses.[/i][/quote] I guess the writers of Trent weren't aware of that, since they make no mention of it... [quote]Killing in self defense is permitted, as well: (from the same) "If a man kill another in selfdefence, having used every means consistent with his own safety to avoid the infliction of death, he evidently does not violate this Commandment." [i]But killing still has serious consequences, even if it is not sinful. There must be grave reason and not another alternative[/i].[/quote] That is not true. You can have another alternative and still give the death penalty. When Mosese told the men who were with him to kill all the others, was there no other alternative? When heretics were put to death, could they not have been put in a jail cell secluded? Of course, they COULD have, but that would not be just. Anyone who murders another, his life shall be taken, as Genesis makes clear (ix. 6): "Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." It is not just to allow a murdered to live. His punishment is both as a deterent and to maintain justice. God is also perfectly Just, another thing often neglected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 8 2004, 03:41 PM'] I don't think it's possible to argue with error too much. Grave matter means that it is mortally sinful if one has full consent and sufficient reflection. Therefore, it would not be grave matter. Was the sacrifice of the Old Law an evil, too? It's not bad. The Council of Trent says it is in paramount obedience. Moreover, only something wrong can be bad. And all wrongdoing is sin (I St. John v. 16, 17). Hostility to error, yes. That is not uncharitable. Moreover, Christ flipped tables--that seems to be something the "don't call a spade a spade" new evangelization misses. [/quote] *sticks fingers in ears and runs around screaming* You need to be catichized more. Actually, no, you just need to not demonize people. And then you need to look up in the Patristics for yourself What "ontological evil" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote] I guess the writers of Trent weren't aware of that, since they make no mention of it... [/quote] I guess that the writers of Trent were aware of it, but had really good reasons for not putting it into practice. If I were to further guess, it is Because the Council of Trent purpose was to make explicit the differences between Protestants and Catholics, and so if we have some thing in common, the council fathers of Trent went out of their way to not mention it. You should not claim to speak for the Church, you do not have that Authority, but I guess that is you started with "I guess." [quote]That is not true. You can have another alternative and still give the death penalty.[/quote] Let us just focus on this for a secound...So why can I not kill you? I mean that really would be the quickest end to the arguement. CCrusader do you have link to an Online Concil of Trent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Yes: [url="http://www.forerunner.com/chalcedon/X0020_15._Council_of_Trent.html"]http://www.forerunner.com/chalcedon/X0020_...l_of_Trent.html[/url]. I'm sure it's on EWTN, also. There are probably many sites that have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 (edited) This thread is becoming Monty Python absurd. Everybody here agrees that using guns in self-defense is okay, but that murder (what Theotokos meant by "killing") is wrong. Killing a human being should never be taken lightly. Moral and ontological evil are different things. Crusader, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and it's getting annoying [color=red][edited by IcePrincess].[/color] Edited November 10, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I really love guns. Big guns. Small guns. All guns. I just love guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 "Gun love, gun love. She's a real gun lover tonight!" ~ ZZTop, "Gun love" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 9 2004, 12:52 AM'] This thread is becoming Monty Python absurd. Everybody here agrees that using guns in self-defense is okay, but that murder (what Theotokos meant by "killing") is wrong. Killing a human being should never be taken lightly. Moral and ontological evil are different things. Crusader, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and it's getting annoying as ****. (edited for vulgar language) [/quote] Why is it that I am the one arguing and Theoketos is not? Seems like a bias... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [img]http://people.zeelandnet.nl/maiden/Allsig.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 PSPX, I responded to SALVATION ONCE AND FOR ALL, etc. right after your bumped it--so if you would like to respond to it, do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 [img]http://www.libertyarms.net/images/btpmodel2aftertext.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 10 2004, 02:03 PM'] PSPX, I responded to SALVATION ONCE AND FOR ALL, etc. right after your bumped it--so if you would like to respond to it, do so. [/quote] I will, but for now I am posting more important things. [img]http://www.gotammo.com/rentals/SW65.jpg[/img] Edited November 10, 2004 by popestpiusx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 PopepiusX, Do you live in Front Royal? (They wouldn't let me send you a personal message.) Do I know you by any chance? (nice gun collection!) God bless, Greg R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 My S&W SW9SV and Glock 19.... [img]http://www.geocities.com/iron_tech/Picture11.jpg[/img] I want to get a Bushmaster .223... and a good 50 cal.... like theirs: [url="http://www.serbu.com/"]http://www.serbu.com/[/url] Want to get into competition shooting... but it's so $$$$ God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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