church and gun control

[hopeful1]

does anyone know where the church stands on this issue, if there is any official statement at all? I'm a bit fuzzy, but my guess is, going by some of its teachings on social justice, that it would favor gun control, but i'm not entirely sure. Does any one know? What are your thoughts on the issue?

[Socrates]

I don't think the Church has any official position on gun control.

This definitely falls outside the realm of faith and morals, so there can be no binding teaching on the subject, only opinions and recommendations.

The Church has always taught that self-defense is just,as well as a right to property. Thus, the right to bear arms does not violate Church teaching.

[curtins]

as long as u aint goin out shootin ppl with it- i think its fine

like socrates sed- i dont think theres any real possition on it.

just be responsible

[StColette]

I haven't been able to find a position on gun control by the Church.

As long as you aren't carrying around and planning to shoot people, and as long as it is out of the reach of children so accidents do not occur. I'm pretty sure the Church would be okay with this.

I don't believe the Church disagrees with hunting so hunting guns would be okay I'm sure

[hopeful1]

thats what i figured, in general. anybody have any objections, or thoughts on the second amendment in general.

[Theoketos]

I doubt that the Church will ever come out on Gun Control (Gaudium Et Spes 43). This is the Job of the Laity and the State, as subsideriry.

What she does say is killing is always grave.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Nov 6 2004, 12:22 PM'] I doubt that the Church will ever come out on Gun Control (Gaudium Et Spes 43). This is the Job of the Laity and the State, as subsideriry.

What she does say is killing is always grave. [/quote]
Do you mean killing is always grave matter? Because that is not true. Murder is always grave matter. Killing animals is not a sin at all. Killing a person is not a sin (in fact it is virtuous) if done as a punishment for a crime, which the Church has always said is a good thing: (Catechism of the Council of Trent) "Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, FAR FROM INVOLVING THE CRIME OF MURDER, IS AN ACT OF [b]PARAMOUNT OBEDIENCE[/b] to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord."

Killing in a just war, especially such as the Crusades, is OK. In the case of the Crusades it would be extremely vituous. One can gain a plenary indulgence by fighting in the Crusades. From the same venerable catechism: "In like manner, the soldier is guiltless who, actuated not by motives of ambition or cruelty, but by a pure desire of serving the interests of his country, takes away the life of an enemy in a just war.

Furthermore, there are on record instances of carnage executed by the special command of God. The sons of Levi, who put to death so many thousands in one day, were guilty of no sin; when the slaughter had ceased, they were addressed by Moses in these words: You have consecrated your hands this day to the Lord."

Killing in self defense is permitted, as well: (from the same) "If a man kill another in self­defence, having used every means consistent with his own safety to avoid the infliction of death, he evidently does not violate this Commandment."

[Guest Aluigi]

[b]CIVIL AUTHORITIES[/b]

therefore that has nothing to do with guns. if you go out and kill someone who has committed a sin against you, you commit a sin in doing so. if you inform the state of what the guy did, they try him and sentence him to death, neither you nor they have committed a sin.

if a guy is attempting to kill you and you kill him first, you have not committed a sin

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 6 2004, 08:47 PM'] [b]CIVIL AUTHORITIES[/b]

therefore that has nothing to do with guns. if you go out and kill someone who has committed a sin against you, you commit a sin in doing so. if you inform the state of what the guy did, they try him and sentence him to death, neither you nor they have committed a sin.

if a guy is attempting to kill you and you kill him first, you have not committed a sin [/quote]
I was commenting on what she said: "What she does say is killing is always grave", which I thought I made clear when I said: "Do you mean killing is always grave matter? Because that is not true." I went on to explain why it is not true.

[Guest Aluigi]

just clarifying, the way you talked made it sound as if you were advocating vigalante justice.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 6 2004, 09:25 PM'] just clarifying, the way you talked made it sound as if you were advocating vigalante justice. [/quote]
Sorry I was not clear

[ironmonk]

What "gun control" people fail to realize is that it is not the people who want guns legally that we have to worry about.

The problem is not guns or gun control... the problem is criminals. Criminals will always have access to illegal guns. They will always get them one way or another.

How about knife control? There are many more stabbings than there are shootings. We need knife control now... we should make it illegal to sell knives and even have knives! There is no reason why anyone would need a knife, they just use them to kill people anyway! Look at 9/11, terrorist took the plane with box cutters! Anyone can pick up a box cutter at almost any department store or hardware store! The sky is falling!

Shooting is fun. People who get guns the legal way, no matter what type of gun are not the people we need to worry about. To cry gun control, when there already is plenty of gun control is foolish.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Theoketos]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 6 2004, 07:23 PM'] Do you mean killing is always grave matter? Because that is not true. Murder is always grave matter. Killing animals is not a sin at all. Killing a person is not a sin (in fact it is virtuous) if done as a punishment for a crime, which the Church has always said is a good thing: (Catechism of the Council of Trent) "Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, FAR FROM INVOLVING THE CRIME OF MURDER, IS AN ACT OF [b]PARAMOUNT OBEDIENCE[/b] to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord."

Killing in a just war, especially such as the Crusades, is OK. In the case of the Crusades it would be extremely vituous. One can gain a plenary indulgence by fighting in the Crusades. From the same venerable catechism: "In like manner, the soldier is guiltless who, actuated not by motives of ambition or cruelty, but by a pure desire of serving the interests of his country, takes away the life of an enemy in a just war.

Furthermore, there are on record instances of carnage executed by the special command of God. The sons of Levi, who put to death so many thousands in one day, were guilty of no sin; when the slaughter had ceased, they were addressed by Moses in these words: You have consecrated your hands this day to the Lord."

Killing in self defense is permitted, as well: (from the same) "If a man kill another in self­defence, having used every means consistent with his own safety to avoid the infliction of death, he evidently does not violate this Commandment." [/quote]
You argue too much.

You are correct in saying that murder is always wrong, and in the instances you mentioned killing is Just, but it is also grave, or a serious matter. Killing, even of animals in an ontological evil, or malum, though it is not moral evil to Kill animals. The Life of a Human being is so precious, that even if it is just and maybe in a merciful to kill them, it is still sad, and bad in a way.

If you ever feel like talking in a charitable way, I am sure that we could get a long. In fact some times I think, as in this case you are dead on, but you speak with such hostility. When the son's of Thurder asked Jesus to, Jesus did not, but instead loved.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader edited by Theoketos' date='Nov 7 2004,'] Do you mean killing is always grave matter? [i]Because that is true, though I think it could be better qualified.[/i] [i]Murder is always grave matter, while killing animals is not a sin at all nor is it grave.[/i] [i]But I understand what you ment and I would like to futher expalin do the truth may be known. [/i]Killing a person is not a sin (in fact it is Just) if done as a punishment for a crime, which the Church has always said is a good thing: (Catechism of the Council of Trent)

"Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent.

The just use of this power, FAR FROM INVOLVING THE CRIME OF MURDER, IS AN ACT OF [b]PARAMOUNT OBEDIENCE[/b] to this Commandment which prohibits murder.

The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life. [i]This part is really important because if helps explain why ending a life must be the [b]last resort.[/b][/i]

Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. [i]But all of this still involves an evil and a saddness because of the loss of life.[/i]

Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord."

Killing in a just war, especially such as the Crusades, is OK. [i]Although it would have been better if a peaceful resolution could have been found.[/i] In the case of the Crusades it would be extremely vituous. [i]Though that is my interpretation which leaves out, the unjust means and crimes commited during the Crusades, while focusing on the Just goal.[/i] One can gain a plenary indulgence by fighting in the Crusades. [i]Although it is important to note that this does not happen today.[/i]

From the same venerable catechism: "In like manner, the soldier is guiltless who, actuated not by motives of ambition or cruelty, but by a pure desire of serving the interests of his country, takes away the life of an enemy in a just war.

There are on record instances of carnage executed by the special command of God. The sons of Levi, who put to death so many thousands in one day, were guilty of no sin; when the slaughter had ceased, they were addressed by Moses in these words: You have consecrated your hands this day to the Lord." [i]Althogh a certain amount of hyberbolic allogory is encouraged by the Church in the reading of these verses.[/i]

Killing in self defense is permitted, as well: (from the same) "If a man kill another in self­defence, having used every means consistent with his own safety to avoid the infliction of death, he evidently does not violate this Commandment." [i]But killing still has serious consequences, even if it is not sinful. There must be grave reason and not another alternative.[/i]

[/quote]
fixed

[popestpiusx]

I love guns.