Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Katholikos]

I think the reason that 'the Protestants' offered no answer to the question is because most of the protestants on this forum don't believe Once saved always saved. I don't.

One argument I heard was using the verse Rom 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Their argument is that this verse says that if you believe at some stage in your life, you will be saved regardless of whether you turn away later. This argument is weak in my opinion. The verb 'believe' is in the present tense, therefore, you must be currently believing in order to be saved. It doesn't say that 'if you believe at one point in your life you will be saved'. It says believe in the present tense, not past tense.

So there you go. I presented an argument for OSAS, then argued against it, as I don't believe in OSAS.

A favorite argument of Protestants is that in spite of their thousands of divisions into competing and conflicting groups with different doctrines, they all agree on the "essentials." Yet each denomination disagrees about what is "essential." Their many disagreements about what the Bible teaches are so "essential," that they can't worship together in peace. Protestants have split and then split again -- and again and again, ad infinitum -- over Biblical interpretation. They will eventually splinter into oblivion, beating each other over the head with the Bible, which in Protestant hands is stolen property -- the Bible is a Catholic book.

OSAS concerns salvation. As we see even on this phorum, there is disagreement among Protestants about this doctrine. If salvation isn't one of the "essentials," what is? Luther, the hero of the Deformation, founder of the first Protestant church, invented OSAS. It was modified (reinvented) by Calvin. Some later Protestants believe different versions of it; some believe it not at all.

Protestantism is do-it-yourself, man-made religion. You don't believe what Christ's own Church teaches? Make up your own doctrines, based on your unique interpretation of the Bible of course, and found one of your own. That's what 33,820 men (and women) have done (and counting).

Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world, and the Apostles taught it "to observe all that [Christ] commanded" (Mt 28:20). The Church, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, whom Jesus sent to guide it forever (John 14:16 et al.), wrote the New Testament and produced the Bible.

Thank you, O Lord, for your One True Church and for the wisdom and grace to embrace it!

Katholikos

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[nippy316]

Now that's the Likos I remember!

[Anna]

Amen and Halleluiah!!!!!!! :wub: :wub: :wub:

[IcePrincessKRS]

I missed you Likos!!!

[Katholikos]

Anna, Ironmonk, Little Flower, Ice Princess, Reformation Now,

Thank you for welcoming me back (as some of you know, I have been very ill) and for your kind comments. I'm relearning Spanish and volunteering in a second-grade classroom, so my time for posting is limited. But I'll put in an appearance when I can. Coming home is always good! Phatmass is my home. And we are all (literally, genetically) brothers and sisters. So let us love one another.

Pray for our Holy Father! Likos

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

He dude, smells of elderberries your sick will be in my prayers!

in light of your comment made earlier:

I never saw myself as Protestant untill entering this site, I actually thought protestants were a denomination! hahahaha. This website has classed me protestant, yet my faith can not be put into the group of many of my fellow counetrparts!

OSAS is true, not on its own but with Righteouness, living under God's grace and Holy Spirit Guidance.

OSAS is not true on its own.

Trooper

Ex-Catholic, Ex-Pentecostal, FULL FAITHLANDER! it's like disneyland, cept the whole thing is run by God and it rox so much harder!

[Katholikos]

He dude, smells of elderberries your sick will be in my prayers!

in light of your comment made earlier:

I never saw myself as Protestant untill entering this site, I actually thought protestants were a denomination! hahahaha. This website has classed me protestant, yet my faith can not be put into the group of many of my fellow counetrparts!

OSAS is true, not on its own but with Righteouness, living under God's grace and Holy Spirit Guidance.

OSAS is not true on its own.

Trooper

Ex-Catholic, Ex-Pentecostal, FULL FAITHLANDER! it's like disneyland, cept the whole thing is run by God and it rox so much harder!

Sorry, Trooper, but you have a man-made religion, made by yourself alone, and that classifies you as a Protestant. I guess that makes you the 33,821st denomination -- a denomination of one .

Statisticians, researchers, and anyone who classifies the divisions of Christianity according to belief use the following categories: (Roman) Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant. There are 33,820 separate and distinct Protestant groups, according to the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001). Of course, they probably didn't count you .

OSAS has been popular among Protestants ever since Luther invented it! And why not? Sin all you please and still go to heaven? Now that's the kind of Christianity murderers, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, slanderers, robbers, the greedy, and anyone who lives immorally can aspire to. But that's not what St. Paul said about who is going to heaven! Read 1 Cor 6:9-11.

I believe what the Apostles taught, who learned their teachings from Christ and passed them on to the Catholic Church "once for all" (Jude 3). As an ex-Catholic, you do not. You have traded truth for fiction.

I'll say it again -- Christianity was not based on the Bible (it didn't exist until some 400 years later), but on the teachings of the Apostles, vested in the Catholic Church. The doctrines of the Church are in the Bible, but the Bible is not their original source. Neither Jesus, nor the Apostles, nor the Catholic Church ever taught such a doctrine as OSAS. Quite the opposite. SALVATION CAN BE LOST BY EVEN ONE MORTAL (DEADLY) SIN.

OSAS says "sin and sin strongly" and if you have EVER believed in Jesus Christ, you are saved. Sin, and go to heaven anyway. Forget the commandments. Who needs 'em? Belief trumps the Commandments. Jesus didn't say "even if you commit murder or adultery a thousands times a day" you'll still go to heaven. Luther said it. Calvin echoed Luther. But Jesus said "Go, and sin no more." And "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father." And "If you love me, keep the commandments." And Jesus said much more about salvation.

OSAS is a man-made doctrine. But if you want to believe it, be my guest. But beware of St. Peter's admonition about twisting scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16).

The Scriptures have been twisted at least 33,821 different ways (and counting).

Oremus pro invicem (Let us pray for one another), Likos

[jasJis]

Bienviendos aqui a phatmass, mi Christi hermano, Katholikos.

I'm glad you are back with us. Phatmass was much less without you. Don't stay away too much, but don't let us sicken you either!! ;)

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

Sorry, Trooper, but you have a man-made religion, made by yourself alone, and that classifies you as a Protestant. I guess that makes you the 33,821st denomination -- a denomination of one .

Statisticians, researchers, and anyone who classifies the divisions of Christianity according to belief use the following categories: (Roman) Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant. There are 33,820 separate and distinct Protestant groups, according to the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001). Of course, they probably didn't count you .

OSAS has been popular among Protestants ever since Luther invented it! And why not? Sin all you please and still go to heaven? Now that's the kind of Christianity murderers, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, slanderers, robbers, the greedy, and anyone who lives immorally can aspire to. But that's not what St. Paul said about who is going to heaven! Read 1 Cor 6:9-11.

I believe what the Apostles taught, who learned their teachings from Christ and passed them on to the Catholic Church "once for all" (Jude 3). As an ex-Catholic, you do not. You have traded truth for fiction.

I'll say it again -- Christianity was not based on the Bible (it didn't exist until some 400 years later), but on the teachings of the Apostles, vested in the Catholic Church. The doctrines of the Church are in the Bible, but the Bible is not their original source. Neither Jesus, nor the Apostles, nor the Catholic Church ever taught such a doctrine as OSAS. Quite the opposite. SALVATION CAN BE LOST BY EVEN ONE MORTAL (DEADLY) SIN.

OSAS says "sin and sin strongly" and if you have EVER believed in Jesus Christ, you are saved. Sin, and go to heaven anyway. Forget the commandments. Who needs 'em? Belief trumps the Commandments. Jesus didn't say "even if you commit murder or adultery a thousands times a day" you'll still go to heaven. Luther said it. Calvin echoed Luther. But Jesus said "Go, and sin no more." And "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father." And "If you love me, keep the commandments." And Jesus said much more about salvation.

OSAS is a man-made doctrine. But if you want to believe it, be my guest. But beware of St. Peter's admonition about twisting scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-16).

The Scriptures have been twisted at least 33,821 different ways (and counting).

Oremus pro invicem (Let us pray for one another), Likos

ok Mate, lets get a couple of things straight. i never replaced truth for fiction, if I did you are calling me a fool, and a Fool I am not.

I simply trimmed truth and a whole load of other carp, to just truth. I took away the traditions that held me back from enjoying a personal relationship with God my Saviour.

There is a direct route, why should I detour.

I simply call myself a Christian, because that is all I am and Christ is who I am belong to.

You say Salvation Can Be Lost by One Mortal Sin

so there is no repentance, or wait is this were your Purgatory comes in?

Jude 3, please give me some of that, because Jude 3 ain't in my bible.

If you were reffering to Jude verse 3 then you are reffering to false teachers, once again there is a closed minded person on here. Or in other words a Protestant Hater, you may say you love us as Christians, but you hate us with your mind and mouth....

Man-Made doctrines is half of your own religion my friend. Especially if you base your church on Peter rather than Jesus.

The OSAS you describe I do not agree with!

[jasJis]

Trooper,

You have to get past the idea that all Tradition is man made. Following the Gospel Peter, John, Paul, and the Apostles preached is Tradition. The Church had that before they wrote SOME of it down in the New Testament. The Old Testament reveals the New Testament. The New Testament fulfills the Old Testament. Tradition is passed on by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, Old Testament, and our faithfullness to the Gospel of the Apostles. WE DON'T JUST HAVE A BOOK!!!!

Ask a little more about Catholic teaching. There's more to it. For example, one can't accidently commit a Mortal Sin that causes us to lose salvation. It's poor semantics by Catholics that causes that misunderstanding. But ask them what constitutes a Mortal Sin and they will tell you it must meet 3 conditions. It must be a grave (serious matter). You must understand it's a serious matter. You must freely with unfettered ability choose to commit the sin any way. That can't be done by accident.

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

so do you believe in pre-destination? you must if this is your theory!

Sorry but my 66 book Bible is everything to me! It is my sword in this life! and all I need is my sword!

[Anna]

so do you believe in pre-destination? you must if this is your theory!

Sorry but my 66 book Bible is everything to me! It is my sword in this life! and all I need is my sword!

Your 66 book Bible is great, as far as it goes. But it is incomplete.

It has been altered and edited time and again, so that meanings have been lost and mistranslated.

If you'd compare a Catholic Bible with a Protestant, you would find that we have all the same books as you, plus more...more from God, that Luther removed!!!

[cmotherofpirl]

so do you believe in pre-destination? you must if this is your theory!

Sorry but my 66 book Bible is everything to me! It is my sword in this life! and all I need is my sword!

But the Bible didn't start out as 66 books. So why would you use it?

You are worshipping a book deformed by Martin Luther, not God.

Doesn't that violate the !st Commandment?

Shouldn't you be worshipping God instead of paper?

Edited October 8, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[Anna]

Trooper,

You seriously never knew Catholicism. If you were in the Church, then you were lukewarm.

Leaving it and following doctrines you like better isn't really the answer.

So, you're now in a relationship where Jesus rox, eh?

Hmmm. In the Bible, He says to pick up your cross EVERY DAY and come, follow.

That doesn't mean that every day has to be filled with misery.

But I hardly think it means that life as a Christian is one big party, either.

If you mean by predestination, that God already knows where we'll spend eternity, I believe He does.

But we freely choose to go there. He doesn't set our path and our final destination, He just knows which way we'll chose.

By what Divine Authority did you decide that Sacred Traditions handed down from the Apostles are "carp," and that they can be cast aside in disgust?

The Apostles didn't "invent" them, they were taught by Jesus.

Everything the Church holds Sacred was passed down from the Apostles, whether in writing, or orally.

"But men will come and call evil good, and good evil..."

Edited October 8, 2003 by Anna

[Paladin D]

I'm very skeptical when someone claims himself/herself to be a former-Catholic, yet know hardly anything about the Church's teaching in the first place.

Sometimes the person is speaking the truth, and was just ignorant.

Sometimes the person is speaking lies, so he can make Catholicism look bad.