Anna Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Inquiring Catholics want to know. IronMonk did a great job describing Purgatory in his thread, using many Bible quotes, writings of Early Church Fathers, etc. Please tell us when the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine began, where it got its roots. Because the Apostles and Early Church taught of the existance of a state of purging after death, for any sins that might still be stained upon a soul. So that only the souls who've been purified whiter than snow enter into heaven... So, Once Saved Always Saved would mean that your soul is already whiter than snow right now? Where is that in the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 As far as the doctrine's history, I don't know. And I believe that we can lose our salvation if we deliberately make a decision to walk away from God. But not that if we happen to sin, we're doomed. And does this help? Isaiah 1:18 "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. (Thankyou God for that promise!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 6, 2003 Author Share Posted October 6, 2003 But it doesn't say when or how this happens...and that is the Old Testament you're quoting from there...The Jews believed in Purgatory; that there was a place where their souls would be made whiter than snow...Which is what I paraphrased in my opening post. Where does it say that once you've accepted Christ, you're no longer going to incur any penalty for future sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 It doesn't as far as I know. I think it's obvious that there's consequences for sin. If I kill someone, I'm going to go to jail, regardless of whether I repent before God or not. But the bible says that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:9), so I know that I am forgiven by God if I confess my sin to Him. Forgiveness is unconditional. It's not like "well if you do this and this and this to make up for your sin, then I'll forgive you". And if this whole "soul stained by sin" thing makes a difference, God has the power to make us clean instantly. By the way, wasn't this thread supposed to be about once-saved-always-saved? There's already a discussion happening about purgatory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 6, 2003 Author Share Posted October 6, 2003 (edited) ,Oct 6 2003, 11:45 AM] It doesn't as far as I know. But the bible says that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:9), so I know that I am forgiven by God if I confess my sin to Him. But if Jesus intended for us to confess our sins directly to Him, then why did He appear to the Apostles, breathe on them, and say, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven. If you hold them bound, they are held bound" ? The Apostles began hearing confessions after this, as a part of their priesthood to the flock! Doesn't skipping the earthly person designated by Christ Himself seem that you're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you wish to accept, while rejecting others? Edited October 6, 2003 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven. If you hold them bound, they are held bound" Exactly where, and in which translation, does it say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Something to add here . . . Jesus died so that our sins could be forgiven. He did NOT die so that we wouldn't have to undergo temporal punishment for our sins. I mean, if you had a child who disobeyed you, they may be truly sorry and ask your forgiveness. But although you forgave them, you'd still punish them. Right? That's why we have to do penance -- to help lessen the temporal punishment that accumulates with each sin we commit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 ,Oct 6 2003, 09:58 AM] Exactly where, and in which translation, does it say that? It says that in the Gospel of John near the end when Jesus appears to the disciples after His Resurrection. All reputable translations render it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 ,Oct 6 2003, 11:45 AM] It doesn't as far as I know. I think it's obvious that there's consequences for sin. If I kill someone, I'm going to go to jail, regardless of whether I repent before God or not. But the bible says that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:9), so I know that I am forgiven by God if I confess my sin to Him. Forgiveness is unconditional. It's not like "well if you do this and this and this to make up for your sin, then I'll forgive you". And if this whole "soul stained by sin" thing makes a difference, God has the power to make us clean instantly. By the way, wasn't this thread supposed to be about once-saved-always-saved? There's already a discussion happening about purgatory... If you murder someone and say you are sorry, you still do jail time. God forgives your sins but you still must pay a penalty. David committed adultery, and God forgave him. But the child of this union died as a punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 ,Oct 6 2003, 11:58 AM] Exactly where, and in which translation, does it say that? THe Gospel of John: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 It says that in the Gospel of John near the end when Jesus appears to the disciples after His Resurrection. All reputable translations render it that way. Found it, never mind. I thought Anna was referring to a different verse, which I was wondering why it was translated the way it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 You see, Catholics believe that we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Yet Protestants seem to think that unless we claim to be saved, we do not believe in Jesus Christ. We're simply hesitant to proclaim our own judgement. That is for God to proclaim, after we are judged. It isn't that we don't have Faith in God, it's that we don't have faith in a fallen human nature. Even the best human beings fall into sin. So, we won't claim to be saved, as a general rule. We just say "we're working on it!" Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Inquiring Catholics want to know. IronMonk did a great job describing Purgatory in his thread, using many Bible quotes, writings of Early Church Fathers, etc. Please tell us when the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine began, where it got its roots. Because the Apostles and Early Church taught of the existance of a state of purging after death, for any sins that might still be stained upon a soul. So that only the souls who've been purified whiter than snow enter into heaven... So, Once Saved Always Saved would mean that your soul is already whiter than snow right now? Where is that in the Bible? Anna and other old friends, I'm just dropping in to say hello. Since the Protestants offered no answer to your Q (why am I not surprised?), here's the scoop. Anglican clergyman John Henry Newman researched a book intended to disprove Catholicism's claim to be the One True Church, entitled "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine." In it, he wrote: "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant." When he had finished editing his book, he put down his pen, called a priest, and became a Catholic. Once Saved, Always Saved originated from the mind and pen of Martin Luther. Jesus and the Apostles did not teach it, and no Christian for 16 centuries ever believed it until Luther invented it. Luther wrote: QUOTE No sin can separate us from Him (Christ), even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. UNQUOTE (from Luther's letter entitled "Let Your Sins Be Strong," written to his aide, Philip Melanchthon, author of the Augsburg Confession, 1 August 1521) Calvin put a different spin on Luther's doctrine and called it "Perseverance of the Saints." He taught that Jesus didn't die for everyone but only for the "elect," and that those God chooses to be saved cannot lose their salvation. . It's the P in TULIP, an acronym for the basic tenants of 5-point Calvinism). Another name for it is Once Saved, Always Saved. Was Christianity "once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 3) by the Apostles in accordance with Jesus' mandate (Mt 28:20), or is each new Christian obliged to read the Bible and figure it out anew for himself? What did the Christians of the first four centuries believe, before the Bible existed? Read the history of early Christianity. You won't find OSAS. What you will find is a flourishing, teaching Catholic Church -- teaching today the same doctrines she taught 21 centuries ago, learned from the lips of the Apostles. The Church is the Mother, not the Daughter, of the Bible. Christianity is not based on the Bible. Rather, the New Testament is based on the teaching of the Catholic Church, which predated the NT and was the model for it. The Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible. OSAS is a figment of the Reformers' imagination. Even Satan quotes Scripture. We know that there are at least 33,820 ways to interpret the Bible. "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant." Katholikos ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, exstatic to be Catholic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Katholikos!!! Great to see you bro! We miss you and your in our prayers! God Bless, Love in Christ, Your servant in Christ, ironmonk, KOC Militia Immaculata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 thats the likos we know and love....and miss.... :wub: :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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