thessalonian Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 " The Holy Innocents were circumcized, since the Jewish custom was to do so 8 days after birth (hence January 1 is the Solemnity fo the Circumcision of the Lord, which is the Octave of Christmas)." Thanks for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 8 2004, 05:02 PM'] Baptism=Baptism=Baptism. And who says that the Baptisms are different? The word is capitalized. They are both salvific. [/quote] I bet it is not capitalized in the Latin... Many Church Fathers use it to mean something different. Some say Baptism of Blood to refer to Martyrdom, not that it means it is a Baptism. They can use it to refer to those who have already been baptized with water, etc. Moreover, if you look at Trent, you can see that it would be contradictory to have such a proposition: Canon 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema. Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema. There is no clarification on Baptism, so it must be assumed that the Baptism spoken of in 2 is the same as 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 (edited) [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 8 2004, 02:56 PM'] I have two quotes for you, from Mark and Luke: [quote]Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I drink or be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished![/quote] Poor Catechesis means poor training. Ed. because I can't spell. [/quote] Did you see this? Edited November 9, 2004 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 (edited) [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 8 2004, 04:47 PM'] I bet it is not capitalized in the Latin... [/quote] [quote]1225 In Paschate Suo, Christus omnibus hominibus Baptismi fontes aperuit. Re quidem vera, iam de passione quam Ipse Hierosolymis erat subiturus, locutus erat tamquam de « Baptismo » quo Ipse baptizandus erat. 164 Sanguis et aqua quae de aperto Iesu crucifixi exiverunt latere, 165 typi sunt Baptismi et Eucharistiae, vitae novae sacramentorum: 166 exinde possibile est « ex aqua et Spiritu » nasci ad introeundum in Regnum Dei (Io 3,5). « Vide, ubi baptizaris, unde sit Baptisma nisi de cruce Christi, de morte Christi. Ibi est omne mysterium, quia pro te passus est. In Ipso redimeris, in Ipso salvaris ». 167[/quote] Nope, looks capitalized to me. Edited November 9, 2004 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 [quote]Many Church Fathers use it to mean something different. Some say Baptism of Blood to refer to Martyrdom, not that it means it is a Baptism. They can use it to refer to those who have already been baptized with water, etc. Moreover, if you look at Trent, you can see that it would be contradictory to have such a proposition: Canon 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema. Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema. There is no clarification on Baptism, so it must be assumed that the Baptism spoken of in 2 is the same as 5 [/quote] Nope, that's when we trust the Magisterium to actually know what it's talking about, and go based on what is [i]infallibly[/i] taught today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Catholic Crusader, I don't have alot of time for your rather long article at the moment. I will read more of it later. I do find it interesting that the author of it is not infallible and yet up above you make the claim that statements regarding invincible ignorance by others are not infallible. I think what the author of your article and you are missing is the context of the words he is quoting. One quote caught my eye: "making thus invincible ignorance a means of salvation." No one would claim that ignorance is a means of salvation and that is exactly the point of the one whom he quotes in this matter. I think it was Aquinas. Christ is the only means of salvatoin. Following a conscience which is partially in ignorance is also partly in truth. The ignorance only means lack of culpability for the wrong done. It is the truth that saves according to the laws which God has planted on every mans heart such that he has not excuse if he does not follow them. Romans 2:15 is as true today as it was before Christ. I will try to have more time for this later as I have an interesting quote from Pius XII on this very topic. Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 [quote]Moreover, the Holy Innocents were martyred in that they were killed in place of Christ. This is a special circumstance. You can't call the attempted murder of Christ the same as the murder-fo-convenience, etc. that happens today. Your analogy doesn't seem to stand, and on top of that, that all was in the Old Law, which would be different.[/quote] I just wanted to make two points, they're not dying for the Faith, and babies aren't just dying for inconvenience, most people who have an abortion don't think they're killing. Aborted babies, without saying anything, are those who speak out against this outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 CatholicCrusader, I just wanted to petition to see if you would answer any of the objections I raised, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 [quote]Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: [b]lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, [Page 34] to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.[/b][/quote] Trent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 CforC, it seems to me that this discussion has been fairly presumptuous on all parts. Baptism of Blood or Desire has been taught on all levels of the Magisterium and has been taught in multiple catechisms, this we know. We also know how Baptism of Blood or Desire are salvific for someone who has attained the age of reason. What we do [i]not[/i] know is how Baptism of Blood or Desire work with regards to those who have yet to attain the age of reason. As such, we must admit simply that [i]we do not know[/i]. Retaining this mystery in the faith - rather than attempting to establish a certainty that cannot be established - causes us to hope and pray for the mercy of God upon those souls without losing the stark and very real understanding of baptism's necessity. Ultimately, we are humbled before that which only God knows, and, in our humility, are moved to piety, which manifests itself in hopeful prayer. Thus we pray for the souls of the unborn and the victims of abortion ceaselessly. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Nov 8 2004, 10:16 PM'] What we do [i]not[/i] know is how Baptism of Blood or Desire work with regards to those who have yet to attain the age of reason. As such, we must admit simply that [i]we do not know[/i]. [/quote] I just wanted to ask that, hasn't it been proposed that the unborn are actually Baptized by the parents desire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I'm having an identity crisis in this thread. 1)I am a staunch defender of the belief in Limbus Infantium (even for aborted and miscarried children, among the latter I number one of my own). 2)I am a staunch defender of baptism of desire and blood (properly defined of course). To many questions. To many discussions. I think I am tired of talking about this for now. I think I'll just leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I agree with you, now get thee to bed!! Your brain needs a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 9 2004, 06:36 AM'] I agree with you, now get thee to bed!! Your brain needs a break [/quote] Me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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