Socrates Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 6 2004, 07:28 PM'] Right--no one can have Sanctifying Grace without water Baptism SINCE IT WAS INSTITUED AS NECESSARY (Penetcost). Without Sanctifying Grace, one cannot be saved. Therefore, without water Baptism no one can be saved, since Pentecost day. Before Pentecost men could be saved who died without water Baptism, but no one on or after Pentecost day could be saved without water Baptism. Jeff, The Wise Men were in a State of Grace. They did not need Baptism, as it had not yet been instituted. For example, St. John the Baptist was never baptized for the remission of sins, but he still is in Heaven, since the necessity of Baptism did not come until Pentecost. [/quote] It seems to me that the conditions of those in invincible ignorance would be the same as those living before Christ. Of course, we should not be too lax in defining "invincible ignorance," but the fact is that God alone judges individual souls. Judging the salvation or damnation of individual souls is not the place of us on earth. The Church proclaims no one in hell. (Which is not to say no one is in hell, merely that the Church does make definite pronouncements on this, as it is of no benefit to the faithful on earth. She proclaims saints to be in heaven whose lives on earth are an example to us.) A person living in circumstances where he has not been able to learn of the need for baptism would be in the same circumstance as one living before the coming od Christ. It is contrary to reason that God would suddenly condemn to Hell after Christ insituted Baptism, the righteous who would die before being able to even hear of Him and His Church! And yes, every human soul would have to be either in a state of grace or not. There is no third option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 6 2004, 10:42 PM'] "Catholic""Crusader" shut up. i'm serious, yeah it's mean, but you need to be told to simply shut up. nothing but argumentativeness, confrontationalism, and arrogance resonates in all your posts. every single time you post, you are calling everyone else wrong and you are somehow right. remember, the Church is infallible and always right, but you are not. and perhaps not all of your posts need to be about points everyone on pm is wrong about (according to you). you have to agree with us on somethin! is that really so much a part of your faith that it's the one thing you go around trying to spread? that outside the Church there is no salvation? i'm sorry, but you seem to be overemphasizing this. it is dogma, but God judges souls. the Church teaches and God applies the truths it teaches not the laity. God applies salvation, not you. All we need to know is that we have a sacred duty to spread the Divine Catholic Faith to every man on earth and should not rest until it has happened. -Pax- [/quote] Amen to that, Brother Aluigi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 6 2004, 11:31 PM'] God IS bound by His Word. He cannot change His Word. He cannot change infallible declarations either in what He Himself said, what is in the Bible, or what is in Sacred Tradition. Moreover, God cannot change His Will. He cannot change what is and is not a sin--it is not as if God could say tomorrow the Ten Commandments are OK and there is a new set, which are now wrong. He IS bound in such as way that HE BIND HIMSELF, which ways have been listed above, as well as could be expounded upon. He cannot contradict Himself; therefore, when He says that the Sacraments are binding, that means they are. If He says: to be a Priest, one must be ordained by a Bishop, does that mean: "you can also become a Priest by desire if you die as a Seminarian"? No, it does not mean that at all. The same is true for Baptism--"whether they are handed over to lions to be slaughtered or even if they die as catechumens, they will not be saved who are outside the Church" -Church Fathers. Christ and the Fathers are clear. The Church is clear. God cannot contradict Himself. He has told us that water Baptism is necessary. [/quote] I didn't say HIS WORD, I SAID HIS SACRAMENTS I don't recall reading where the good thief was baptised. I certainly do not recall where martyrs in the arena had to be baptised before they died for Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D0RK4JP2 Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 7 2004, 04:26 PM'] I didn't say HIS WORD, I SAID HIS SACRAMENTS I don't recall reading where the good thief was baptised. I certainly do not recall where martyrs in the arena had to be baptised before they died for Christ. [/quote] :dj: werrrrrrrrd. were all the Old Testament people who got into heaven 'baptised' by their desire or blood? JMJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 I supposed it depends whether they were martyred or not. Those seven brothers in the First reading today.... definately baptized by blood. Maccabees is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 their anticipation of Christ was the faith of their salvation, that they went to the bosom of Abraham until Christ came and got em for the three days He was dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='J.R.D' date='Nov 6 2004, 11:21 PM']First of all, You do not need to be baptized to go to heaven, what about all the unborn children died from abortion?... why cant everyone who wasnt baptized not go to heaven if they lived a good life?[/quote] Unbaptized aborted infants DON'T go to Heaven. I don't know who told you otherwise. The reason you have to be baptized and not just be a good person is that the Church said so infallibly literally dozens of times, most notably in Canons on Baptism of the Council of Trent: [quote]Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,[13] let him be anathema. [13] St. John iii. 5[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 8 2004, 01:32 PM'] Unbaptized aborted infants DON'T go to Heaven. I don't know who told you otherwise. [/quote] Aborted infants are probably Baptized by blood, for they are martyrs of the womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 So the holy innocents whose feast day we celebrate yearly did not go to heaven? I know of no feast day the Church celbrates for those who did not go to heaven. All souls day is the closest of course and is for the souls in purgatory. It is my belief that you do not understand Trent. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 8 2004, 03:36 PM'] Aborted infants are probably Baptized by blood, for they are martyrs of the womb. [/quote] 1) Baptism of Blood has never been defined ex Cathedra, but even if you believe in it, 2) they are NOT martyrs, since they are not murdered for the Faith. With your assessment, anyone who is murdered has a 'baptism' of blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='thessalonian' date='Nov 8 2004, 03:36 PM'] So the holy innocents whose feast day we celebrate yearly did not go to heaven? I know of no feast day the Church celbrates for those who did not go to heaven. All souls day is the closest of course and is for the souls in purgatory. It is my belief that you do not understand Trent. God bless [/quote] 1) The Holy Innocents were murdered BEFORE the necessity of Baptism. The necessity of Baptism, according to the Church, did not commence until Pentecost day. What you are saying, basically, is that Baptism can't be necessary, since under the Old Law no one was baptized. That is illogical. It only is necessary AFTER it's institution. We live under the New Law, not the Old. 2) There are feast days (at least in the new calendar) of people who are not Saints but merely Blessed. To be Blessed does not mean one is in Heaven. A person who is Blessed is not automatically in Heaven. A Saint is for sure in Heaven. A Blessed is a person who the Church says is in Heaven but which is NOT AN INFALLIBLE DECLARATION. I'm not saying the Holy Innocents aren't in Heaven (they are--they died under the Old Law), but I am just letting you know there are feasts for those who either could or could not be in Heaven. 3) I understand the Canons on Baptism of Trent quite well: "Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,[13] let him be anathema." ([13] St. John iii. 5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 You know, you gotta start going beyond ex-Cathedra. There have been two such cases. Also, distinguish beyond infallibly taught and defined. You keep using them as the same, but they're not. The aborted are martyred for being alive a gift of God. They are the witnesses to the dignity of life, a huge part of our faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Something doesn't have to be defined Ex Cathedra for us to have to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Read my post on the types of infallibilty. Next, tell me how this statement on Baptism of Blood isn't infallible: 1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized.22 The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.23 From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit"24 in order to enter the Kingdom of God. It is taught by the OUEM infallibly. It is universal. It is definitive. This is faith. IT IS INFALLIBLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 8 2004, 03:44 PM'] Something doesn't have to be defined Ex Cathedra for us to have to believe it. [/quote] I never said that.... all I said was BoB is not defined ex Cathedra--that isn't the debate though, the debate is if a person can have such a thing (if it exists) by being aborted. Any right-minded theologian can tell you: absolutely not. Martyrdom is DYING FOR THE FAITH OF CHRIST, the CATHOLIC Faith. The aborted infant couldn't possibly do that, since he has not belief in any Religion explicitly, as he has not reached the age of use. In any event, if you think abortions are sending these babies to Heaven, then why do so many people call it satanic? Wouldn't it be Divine? Why would satan want to send 4000 people to Heaven every day? That is simply absurd. It would not be so wrong if these babies were going to Heaven. In fact, it would be good to be able to ensure that they are going to Heaven. The idea of a baptism of blood for an aborted infant fails theologically and logically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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