the un-baptised

[D0RK4JP2]

Gday,

I got's a question.

Can a un-baptised person ever be or not be in a state of grace?

JMJ.

[popestpiusx]

I don't see how it would be possible.

[thessalonian]

First of all there is baptism by desire to think about. Also there is Romans 2:15.

Romans 2:12-15
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law DO INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So I would not say no but rather would leave it up to God to decide.

By the way, one might say this is salvation without Christ to say that these may be saved who do the law instinctively. It is not salvatoin by Grace. Yet the scripture tells us that the law was written on their hearts by God so this is not a contradiction of the once for all mediation of our one and only savior.

Cornelius was neither Jew nor Christian and was said to be "a righteous man". God heard his prayer. The three wise men were not Jew or Christian yet I am quite sure they walked away justified. I see it as quite possible that
throughout the ages there have been others such as these who have not had an opportunity to know Christ, yet have tried to follow what is in their hearts.

Blessings

Blessings

Edited November 5, 2004 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

One quick thought on the wise men I spoke of above. One might say they were justified after they met Christ in the manger. While I don't disagree with that and perhaps that is where they lost their stain of original sin, since there was no baptism (with the Holy Spirit) before the resurrection, the scirptures do say "the pure of heart shall see God". Now the Jews of the time who had the scriptures and herod did not see God but these three wise men did. So it would seem that implies a condition of their hearts before they met this babe in the manger.

[popestpiusx]

Without baptism salvation is impossible. The question is, what are the different ways one can recieve the benefits of baptism?

[thessalonian]

I do not believe that baptism of desire could happen till the end of life. For if it happened before Peter would have had no need to baptize Cornelious whom the Scriptures tell us was a righteous man. I

Edited November 5, 2004 by thessalonian

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Nov 5 2004, 02:30 PM'] I do not believe that baptism of desire could happen till the end of life. For if it happened before Peter would have had no need to baptize Cornelious whom the Scriptures tell us was a righteous man. I [/quote]
I agree.

[Guest Aluigi]

never trust and assume a baptism of desire in anyone. that's why it is our sacred duty to spread the Good News (the real Good News, as guarded by the Apostolic Representitives through the ages) and baptize all in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Baptism of Desire is something we call upon for hope that someone we did not know to be an explicit member of the Catholic Church but we knew he heald strong beliefs in Jesus Christ and had he known the Church was necessary for salvation would have been the first to sign up, that God will not hold them accountable for the sin of being explicitly outside the Church and recognize their implicit imperfect membership within her.

[D0RK4JP2]

Gday,

So....without baptism we have no sanctifying grace, or absence thereof it, in our souls?

JMJ.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I'm not sure that is correct, Dork4JP2. Original Sin is the lack of communion between God and Man. Communion between God and Man is the necessary result of Sanctifying Grace. Thus, a person in communion with God must by necessity be in a state of sanctifying grace and, in the same way, a man who is not in communion with God cannot be in a state of sanctifying grace. Because a person with Original Sin is, by definition, not in communion with God then it follows tautologically that he or she cannot be in a state of sanctifying Grace.

However, a person who is not in a state of sactifying grace can still be moved by grace. It seems to me that this is the best way to explain the issue of the wise men (who, it seems to me, were moved by grace in their travelling to visit the Christ Child). It seems to me that a person who is moved by Grace perhaps could be more likely to undergo a baptism of desire at the end of his or her life, but no such thing could be certain.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='D0RK4JP2' date='Nov 5 2004, 07:19 PM'] Gday,

So....without baptism we have no sanctifying grace, or absence thereof it, in our souls?

JMJ. [/quote]
Right--no one can have Sanctifying Grace without water Baptism SINCE IT WAS INSTITUED AS NECESSARY (Penetcost). Without Sanctifying Grace, one cannot be saved. Therefore, without water Baptism no one can be saved, since Pentecost day. Before Pentecost men could be saved who died without water Baptism, but no one on or after Pentecost day could be saved without water Baptism.

Jeff,

The Wise Men were in a State of Grace. They did not need Baptism, as it had not yet been instituted. For example, St. John the Baptist was never baptized for the remission of sins, but he still is in Heaven, since the necessity of Baptism did not come until Pentecost.

[cmotherofpirl]

Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire.
We are bound by Sacraments, God is not.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 6 2004, 09:38 PM'] Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire.
We are bound by Sacraments, God is not. [/quote]
God IS bound by His Word. He cannot change His Word. He cannot change infallible declarations either in what He Himself said, what is in the Bible, or what is in Sacred Tradition. Moreover, God cannot change His Will. He cannot change what is and is not a sin--it is not as if God could say tomorrow the Ten Commandments are OK and there is a new set, which are now wrong. He IS bound in such as way that HE BIND HIMSELF, which ways have been listed above, as well as could be expounded upon. He cannot contradict Himself; therefore, when He says that the Sacraments are binding, that means they are. If He says: to be a Priest, one must be ordained by a Bishop, does that mean: "you can also become a Priest by desire if you die as a Seminarian"? No, it does not mean that at all. The same is true for Baptism--"whether they are handed over to lions to be slaughtered or even if they die as catechumens, they will not be saved who are outside the Church" -Church Fathers. Christ and the Fathers are clear. The Church is clear. God cannot contradict Himself. He has told us that water Baptism is necessary.

[J.R.D]

First of all,

You do not need to be baptized to go to heaven, what about all the unborn children died from abortion?... why cant everyone who wasnt baptized not go to heaven if they lived a good life?

[Guest Aluigi]

because we are not saved by works, but faith kept alive by works through grace

if you die without explicit baptism but lived a life implicitly joined to the Church by intention and action, God may judge that worthy of imperfect but present Divine and Catholic Faith and through your desire you have the favors granted by Christ to the baptized, being a Son of God.

baptism is a sacrament necessary for the salvation of a soul (unlike holy orders) which is why God's judgement alone determines whether a person is in baptismal grace, and He has at His disposal according to the Catholic Church in the Councils of Trent and Vatican II the power to save one because their desire of baptism makes them a Son of God.

this CANNOT be applied to any person absolutely. we can never say anyone else has baptism of desire, because baptism of desire is something that basically becomes effective at God's discretion at the moment of death.

God chose the visible sign of water to confer the invisible grace of Divine sonship. God will only let this happen if the matter and form are correct. This shows that baptism is at God's discretion. If a priest baptizes a man in a coma for example, God decides. He does not take away the need for water, but rather as King and Master of all creation uses extraordinary means to fulfil His Divine mandates.

realize there is H20 all around us and in the air... realize God is the ultimate judge of whether a person is a Son of God... realize with God all things are possible... realize that the baptism of desire or baptism of blood are things that councils and saints through the ages have mentioned... realize that your mind cannot comprehend the mysteries of Salvation that God is Master of

the end. "Catholic""Crusader" shut up. i'm serious, yeah it's mean, but you need to be told to simply shut up. nothing but argumentativeness, confrontationalism, and arrogance resonates in all your posts. every single time you post, you are calling everyone else wrong and you are somehow right.

remember, the Church is infallible and always right, but you are not.
and perhaps not all of your posts need to be about points everyone on pm is wrong about (according to you). you have to agree with us on somethin!

is that really so much a part of your faith that it's the one thing you go around trying to spread? that outside the Church there is no salvation? i'm sorry, but you seem to be overemphasizing this. it is dogma, but God judges souls. the Church teaches and God applies the truths it teaches not the laity. God applies salvation, not you. All we need to know is that we have a sacred duty to spread the Divine Catholic Faith to every man on earth and should not rest until it has happened.

-Pax-

Edited November 7, 2004 by Aluigi