Last Judgement?

[justfran]

At the Last Judgement, what happens to the people who are still alive and in a state of grace but aren't yet purified of their sins? I know people in Purgatory and in Heaven have already been assured of eternal salvation, but the Catechism doesn't say anything about what I asked.
I thought that if Purgatory ceased to exist at the time of the Judgement, then you'd either go to Heaven or Hell, depending on whether the good stuff you did outweighed the bad stuff, regardless of whether you sincerely wanted to be with God or not. But that kinda contradicts the whole thing about God giving us free will, doesn't it? And I also read something that Holy Father said, about Purgatory being a state of existence, not an actual place.

Edited November 5, 2004 by justfran

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Hmmm...that's an interesting question, and I don't really know the answer. We can rest assured that the salvation of those alive won't hinge on a balance between their good and evil; being outside the state of grace will still be necessary to be damned.

Other than that, I have some possible scenarios, but I would not care to speculate, since it could ultimately scandalize some people.

[phatcatholic]

augustine believed that the fire that will consume the world will cause the adequate amount of suffering necessary to purge any remaining connection to sin.

scary

when i get the chance, i'll find u the source i'm referring to

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Nov 5 2004, 02:50 AM'] augustine believed that the fire that will consume the world will cause the adequate amount of suffering necessary to purge any remaining connection to sin.

scary

when i get the chance, i'll find u the source i'm referring to [/quote]
That was one of my theories...glad to see St. Augustine is with me.

[justfran]

[url="http://www.rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm"]Rosary-Center.Org[/url] (according to CatholicCulture.net the fidelity rating is excellent) says that "it is difficult to reconcile that opinion with the fact that the punishment of original sin imposes the obligation of undergoing death on every member of the human race with the exception of Christ and His Mother, both of whom voluntarily accepted death for the redemption of mankind. (CCC 1008, 1018) "If we die in Christ's grace, physical death completes this dying with Christ (begun in Baptism) and so completes our incorporation into Him in His redeeming act." (CCC 1010)"

It quotes the Trent Catechism: "When we say all (die) we mean those who will have died before the day of judgment, as well as those who will then die. That the Church acquiesces in the opinion that all, without distinction, shall die, and that this opinion is more consonant with truth, is the teaching of St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Nor does St. Paul in his epistle to the Thessalonians depart from this doctrine when he says:

'Those who have died in Christ will rise first. Then we, the living, the survivors, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thenceforth we shall be with the Lord unceasingly.' (3:16,17)

"St. Ambrose explaining these words says: 'In that very being caught up death shall take place, as it were, in a deep sleep, and the soul, having gone forth from the body, shall instantly return. For those who are alive shall die when they are taken up that, coming to the Lord, they may receive their souls from His presence; because in His presence they cannot be dead.' This opinion is supported by the authority of St. Augustine in his book THE CITY OF GOD." (St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that those alive at the world's end will die in that conflagration. - Suppl. 74, 7, ad 3)

The EWTN Teachings section also has an article posted (they got it from somewhere else), saying those who aren't yet purified will undergo purification.

*hoping this might be right*

Edited November 5, 2004 by justfran

[phatcatholic]

justfran,

you found the right article, but you quoted the wrong portions of it

here is the paragraph that answers the original question:[list]
[*]We must remember that when the world comes to an end, so will purgatory. All those in purgatory until that final hour will have completed their purification and satisfied their debt of punishment. One might ask a hypothetical question: what if one dies very shortly before the end of the world in the state of grace, but with a considerable debt of temporal punishment and attachment to creatures. Is that debt paid and the purification accomplished in so short a time? St. Thomas asks the same question with regard to those who are still living at the end of the world, and the answer he gives covers both situations. As we stated, he holds that all those still living the last day will be consumed in that fire.

"There are three reasons why those who will be found living will be able to be cleansed suddenly. One is because there will be few things in them to be cleansed , since they will be already cleansed by the previous fears and persecutions. The second is because they will suffer pain in this life of their own will, and pain suffered in this life voluntarily cleanses much more than pain inflicted after death . . . .The third is because suffering can increase in intensity to make up for shortness of time." (Suppl. 74,8, ad 5). (This third reason would answer the question regarding souls in purgatory.)
[/list]
btw, i got my saints wrong. it was Aquinas, not Augustine

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Theoketos]

On top of this, while Purgation requires a sense of time, it is not necessary that it be equivocal to the passing of time which we experince.

This is to say that, if any souls are in need of purgation, it could happen in an instant or moment.

[justfran]

I also found some stuff in the Catechism.

[quote]Death puts an end to human life [b]as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.[/b] The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that [b]each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith[/b]. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul—a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification, or immediately, —or immediate and everlasting damnation. (1021 - 1022)[/quote]

[quote]As a consequence of original sin, man must suffer "bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned"(1018)[/quote]

[phatcatholic]

well, that doesn't seem to answer ur original question, but if ur happy, i'm happy

[Benedict]

Basically the same thing that I told you but expressed differently.