cilice (SIL-is) noun

[RC_]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='962757' date='Apr 27 2006, 11:02 AM']
AMEN BROTHER!!!!
Some might call it a mental disease called masochism - just like people who cut themselves.
[/quote]

Those people would be ignorant.

[franciscan13]

i recently saw or read somthing about a man from ireland who was a drunk, but finally decided to mend his ways. after he died they found out he had been wearing chains bound tightly to his upper torso. he never told anyone about it just kept it to himself.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Raphael' post='962777' date='Apr 27 2006, 11:11 AM']
I clearly made that distinction in saying that they didn't get joy in the pain itself, but in seeing what it was able to accomplish, namely, their detachment and the grace of God acting through them because of that detachment.
[/quote]

I'm sure there are less sick and less harmful ways of doing that. Perform an act of charity, give of your time, give up a modern inconvenience. Fast for a period of time that is not harmful. Do something to relieve another person's suffering.

[Brother Adam]

I would never insult saints who performed a practice like this. But there are other forms of work that I believe earn more graces than inflicting pain. I would assume one would master these other forms, such as the practice of charity, before even trying something like this, pain for the sake of inflicting pain.

I would assume though that any pain inflicted, such as a tight chain would be for the purpose of avoiding sin ('cut of your hand for it is better to enter heaven...").

Edited April 27, 2006 by Brother Adam

[morostheos]

I think it's important to learn to deny yourself, and this is one way to do it. However, I also think that most people are not called to this particular form of abnegation, and it is something that must always be done under the guidance of a spiritual director.

[jezic]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='962840' date='Apr 27 2006, 11:49 AM']
I'm sure there are less sick and less harmful ways of doing that. Perform an act of charity, give of your time, give up a modern inconvenience. Fast for a period of time that is not harmful. Do something to relieve another person's suffering.
[/quote]

matters such as these are for spiritual directors. Saints tend to have pretty good ones. I trust their judgement.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='962900' date='Apr 27 2006, 11:23 AM']
I would assume one would master these other forms, such as the practice of charity, before even trying something like this, pain for the sake of inflicting pain.

I would assume though that any pain inflicted, such as a tight chain would be for the purpose of avoiding sin ('cut of your hand for it is better to enter heaven...").[/quote]
I don't think your assumptions would be 100% correct.

"Pain for the sake of inflicting pain" would be off base. It wouldn't necessarily be for the purpose of avoiding sin either.

Some people may desire physical pain so that they can share in Christ's pain in a physical way. It might help them unite themselves with Christ by following His example (Jesus [b]chose[/b] to suffer physical pain). If one enjoys pain, then that defeats the purpose of suffering. You can also look at it simply as a physical form of penance. We don't do penance for the sake of penance, or only to avoid sin, so why assume corporal mortification serves these purposes?

[philothea]

Assuming a normal person, you can't possibly [i]enjoy[/i] physical pain. So, by accepting pain for the love of God, it is possible to submit purely to God's will. That's really cool.

Yes, there are weird people, and yes, I don't think a person should use something like a cilice on their own. Some people let guilt overwhelm their sense. Some people will become prideful through what they can endure. Still, it's a physical penance has a long tradition, and I don't see that there's no longer a place for it.

I can totally see why St. Thomas More would be happy because his cilice slipped, as Raphael described. (Yeah, I know, two years ago.)

[Brother Adam]

How is it off base? The cilice (or other methods) inflict pain. The pain inflicted earns graces. I don't get what you are trying to imply. Jesus chose to suffer physically but he did not pick up a stick and start beating himself with it, and the pain He suffered was inflicted by us, by our sin. I can see wanting to suffer to be united to Christ, but your illustration there falls short. As well, I know those who do wear a tight rope around their waste for the sake of purity, so I believe that applies as well. I'm not against forms of physical penance, fasting, and such, but other forms of works should already be there. For instance going to mass, having a strong prayer life, praying for the intercession of the saints, or using the liturgy of the hours.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='philothea' post='963004' date='Apr 27 2006, 01:11 PM']
Assuming a normal person, you can't possibly [i]enjoy[/i] physical pain. So, by accepting pain for the love of God, it is possible to submit purely to God's will. That's really cool.


[/quote]

It's one thing to accept a suffering or difficult situation that cannot be changed and make the most of it spiritually.

It's quite another to say to one's self "I think I'm going to cut myself or inflict some other harm on myself so that I can spring a few souls from purgatory today".

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='963031' date='Apr 27 2006, 04:26 PM']
It's one thing to accept a suffering or difficult situation that cannot be changed and make the most of it spiritually.

It's quite another to say to one's self "I think I'm going to cut myself or inflict some other harm on myself so that I can spring a few souls from purgatory today".
[/quote]

Fasting is a form of endured pain that we bring upon ourself, and we are required to fast on certian days throughout the year. How is fasting different from a cilice?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='963033' date='Apr 27 2006, 01:30 PM']
Fasting is a form of endured pain that we bring upon ourself, and we are required to fast on certian days throughout the year. How is fasting different from a cilice?
[/quote]

For one thing, fasting is required; a cilice is not.

Fasting does not harm our skin with spikes. Rather, church guidelines on fasting state that we should eat what is necessary to maintain our strength. And fasting from not-so-healthy foods might be beneficial for us physically, as a side benefit.

Also, fasting has biblical roots; I have yet to see any biblical roots for the everyday man wearing spiked wire on his skin as a common practice.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='dUSt' post='962982' date='Apr 27 2006, 12:56 PM']
I don't think your assumptions would be 100% correct.

"Pain for the sake of inflicting pain" would be off base. It wouldn't necessarily be for the purpose of avoiding sin either.

Some people may desire physical pain so that they can share in Christ's pain in a physical way. It might help them unite themselves with Christ by following His example (Jesus [b]chose[/b] to suffer physical pain). If one enjoys pain, then that defeats the purpose of suffering. You can also look at it simply as a physical form of penance. We don't do penance for the sake of penance, or only to avoid sin, so why assume corporal mortification serves these purposes?
[/quote]
I agree with this post.

Father Bernard talked about that this past weekend. He said that it used to be that some religious would use their ropes to hit themselves on the back. He showed us how they would do it. It wasn't even hard.. but it was annoying.

[Noel's angel]

Sorry, but I really don't get it....

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='963036' date='Apr 27 2006, 04:35 PM']
For one thing, fasting is required; a cilice is not.

Fasting does not harm our skin with spikes. Rather, church guidelines on fasting state that we should eat what is necessary to maintain our strength. And fasting from not-so-healthy foods might be beneficial for us physically, as a side benefit.

Also, fasting has biblical roots; I have yet to see any biblical roots for the everyday man wearing spiked wire on his skin as a common practice.
[/quote]

Perhaps not, but folks did wear sack cloth as a penance, which wasn't no fun. From what I understand, the cilice does not cause any kind of permanent disfigurement or inhibit one from carrying out normal tasks.