Honest Seeker Or Hardened Heart

[cmotherofpirl]

,Oct 6 2003, 11:32 AM] Some of those verses (Isaiah for example) were written way before the church was around, and the rest certainly not centuries later

But anyway, you're finding verses to back up what the church already believed. I thought so. You just proved my point.

All of the Bible is inspired including Isaiah.

THis simply proves that this idea is not new.

Remember the Church is older than the New Testament, so of course the Bible backs up Church teaching.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful inDouche.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

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II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

[jasJis]

lol I need a thread for the best of Iron that way I can just print the whole thing and distribute it as an apologetics primer keep it up

LOL. It would be hard to pick out the best. Everything he posts is good and everything is a complete primer. Ironmonk doesn't belief in half of anything. When he posts, there isn't much left out. You get your money's worth! Ironmonk thinks the saying "The WHOLE TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH" is a quote from the Church.

[ironmonk]

LOL.  It would be hard to pick out the best.  Everything he posts is good and everything is a complete primer.  Ironmonk doesn't belief in half of anything.  When he posts, there isn't much left out.  You get your money's worth!   Ironmonk thinks the saying "The WHOLE TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH" is a quote from the Church.

:D

B)

You deserve a beer for that one.

Thanks bro.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[jasJis]

You're probably right. Tell you what. You come to Tampa and buy the beer after I bring you with me to see our LifeTeen program and LifeTeen Mass. I'm intrested in hearing your opinion on a what I think is a good LifeTeen program run in a vibrant and Orthodox parish. (We definitely aren't flakey liberals). (And no, you don't have to go up on the Sancturary. I never do either, that's a different matter.)

[nippy316]

lol I need a thread for the best of Iron that way I can just print the whole thing and distribute it as an apologetics primer keep it up

hahaa....true.

[nippy316]

You come to Tampa and buy the beer after I bring you with me to see our LifeTeen program and LifeTeen Mass.  I'm intrested in hearing your opinion on a what I think is a good LifeTeen program run in a vibrant and Orthodox parish.  (We definitely aren't flakey liberals)

True again.

[ironmonk]

You're probably right.  Tell you what.  You come to Tampa and buy the beer after I bring you with me to see our LifeTeen program and LifeTeen Mass.  I'm intrested in hearing your opinion on a what I think is a good LifeTeen program run in a vibrant and Orthodox parish.  (We definitely aren't flakey liberals).  (And no, you don't have to go up on the Sancturary.  I never do either,  that's a different matter.)

Sounds fair...

Not sure when I would have the time... and I don't really have a problem with the Life Teen Masses, because I do not know enough about them, but I do have a problem with soda, candy, etc... being sold in a Mass, like someone stated on the old board. Also, people who are old enough to partake in the Eucharist should not eat or drink at least an hour before hand.

Maybe Mass, then beer & football at the nearest Pub :D

Maybe in a week or two...

I have no clue about going up on the Sancturary.

It will be interesting.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[jasJis]

LOL. If somebody's been selling candy, they sure haven't been telling me. Our teens are told that chewing gum is breaking the fast. We can go to the original Beef-O-Brady where I'm good for a free pitcher. But we need to be at mass at 5:30 and if you see the LT program, it's not done until 9. Not much time for football and beer.

[Norseman82]

,Oct 6 2003, 08:59 AM] Sin isn't deadly because I've been forgiven once and for all by Jesus' death on the cross. And because of that, my sin (past, present, future) ALREADY HAS been purged.

I can see the past and present sin....but would you please explain where in the bible (either directly or by logical conclusion) that you can be forgiven from tomorrow's sins today??? It's like saying that you're going to wash the car today and it will wash away the dirt that gets on it tomorrow....

[[jas]]

The fact that Jesus doesn't have to die on the cross again every time I sin, that one time covers all sin.

I didn't say that I don't need to repent of any future sin, I said that Jesus has already payed the penalty for it.

[ironmonk]

,Oct 7 2003, 01:48 AM] The fact that Jesus doesn't have to die on the cross again every time I sin, that one time covers all sin.

I didn't say that I don't need to repent of any future sin, I said that Jesus has already payed the penalty for it.

NO one has said that Jesus dies on the cross time and time again.

The Sacrifice of the Mass happened in 33 AD... "Once and For All"... perpetual... The Sacrifice Christ made was once... but it counts as the Sacrifice for all Masses.

We are not saved until the end.

As Jesus said:

St. Matt 10:22

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

St. Matt 24:13

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sec...chpt1art3.htm#v

1365

Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366

The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189

1367

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190

1368

The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.

1369

The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.192

1370

To the offering of Christ are united not only the members still here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ.

1371

The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"193 so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ:

Put this body anywhere! Don't trouble yourselves about it! I simply ask you to remember me at the Lord's altar wherever you are.194

Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present. . . . By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we . . . offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.195

1372

St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer's sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:

This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head. . . . Such is the sacrifice of Christians: "we who are many are one Body in Christ.'‘ The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.196

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk, KOC

Militia Immaculata

[Anna]

You see, jas, God is timeless, but we humans are not.

We live within the confines of time.

Time is nothing to God.

When Christ died on the Cross, that Sacrifice exists through all time. He died once, and for all...for all time...for all who would accept it.

What is sin? It is rejecting God. Rejecting His law. Maybe in a small way, maybe in a huge way. But it is me, or you, or some other sinner, at that moment, turning away from Him.

While His forgiveness is always offered to us, we don't always accept it.

If we are rejecting His Commandments, we can't at the very same time, be claiming that it's ok to do this, cuz His blood already paid my price.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Christ is re-crucified. We simply continue to offer that Sacrifice which He gave, to the Father, again and again.

Just as we all receive Christ's forgiveness, again and again, each time we seek His forgiveness.

Just as Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes and fed the multitudes, so too, He feeds us with His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

[[jas]]

I don't think we're disagreeing on this...

I said that Jesus' death and resurection can cleanse us from all sin, past present and future.

I think you've read that as "because I'm free from sin I can go and sin as much as I like" which is blatantly going against God. I'm so not saying that that's okay. What I am saying is that if I do sin in the future, I can run to God, and I can be forgiven because of what Christ has already done for me.

[Norseman82]

,Oct 7 2003, 08:28 AM] I don't think we're disagreeing on this...

I said that Jesus' death and resurection can cleanse us from all sin, past present and future.

I think you've read that as "because I'm free from sin I can go and sin as much as I like" which is blatantly going against God. I'm so not saying that that's okay. What I am saying is that if I do sin in the future, I can run to God, and I can be forgiven because of what Christ has already done for me.

OK, it sounds like we have common ground here. It's just that in other dialogues I have had in the past with other people they seem to think that one need not repent, that you could be killed by police while you are in the middle of pulling the trigger murdering someone for the mafia and you would still automatically go to heaven (that was the exact example I gave on another board, and the reply was that the mafia hit man would go to heaven).

Glad to focus on some areas we agree on for a change!!