Faith and Works

[FiZzGiG]

Okay, I'm debating with someone about what's necessary for salvation. They (as a Protestant) say only faith is necessary. He brought up the point that goes something like: having faith leads to doing good works, therefore it's just faith that's necessary. At least that's what I'm getting. Here's one thing he wrote:

To enter heaven, but you must do the will of God, which is essentially, good works.
And what is God's will? It is for every creature in Heaven and Earth to live for him. God’s will is not helping a nun cross the street or protecting someone when protection is needed. God may approve these things but it is not his ultimate will. His ultimate will is that we worship him with everything.


Ok besides that, he also says we are saved by Grace. Could someone pllleeaase explain grace and what it does for us? I don't really understand it.


AND finally. How do the Sacraments aid in our path to salvation? That is, are they necessary for salvation? What is the case with the Sacraments in relation to salvation?

Sorry for all the questions and the long post, but I gotta have a strong defense!

PAX
~Kerry~

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='FiZzGiG' date='Nov 3 2004, 06:08 PM'] Okay, I'm debating with someone about what's necessary for salvation. They (as a Protestant) say only faith is necessary. He brought up the point that goes something like: having faith leads to doing good works, therefore it's just faith that's necessary. At least that's what I'm getting. [/quote]
well, i think we have everyday examples that prove this not to be the case. how many times have we heard of people who did not have faith in Jesus until they went to a soup kitchen and fed the hungry and realized how blessed they were? in this case, the good work came before the faith. this may put your friend at a loss, but not us, for we know that good works find their source in [i][b]grace[/b][/i], not faith. it was the grace of God that compelled this person to help the less fortunate and it was his grace that compelled the man to make an [i][b]act of faith[/b][/i] and turn his life over to Jesus. grace is the cause of all that is good.


[quote]Here's one thing he wrote:

To enter heaven, but you must do the will of God, which is essentially, good works.
And what is God's will? It is for every creature in Heaven and Earth to live for him. God’s will is not helping a nun cross the street or protecting someone when protection is needed. God may approve these things but it is not his ultimate will. His ultimate will is that we worship him with everything.[/quote]
he's basically contradicted himself here. how can he say that good works are required to enter heaven and w/ his next breath say that God's will is not for us to help someone or protect them? these are good works, and they are very much God's will. the following verses are especially pertinent (this exerpt is somewhat long, but a must read):

[b]Mat 25:31-46[/b]
[b]31 [/b]"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[b]32 [/b]Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[b]33 [/b]and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[b]34 [/b]Then the King will say to those at his right hand, [u]'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world[/u];
[b]35 [/b]for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[b]36 [/b]I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
[b]37 [/b]Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[b]38 [/b]And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[b]39 [/b]And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[b]40 [/b]And the King will answer them, [u]'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me[/u].'
[b]41 [/b]Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[b]42 [/b]for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[b]43 [/b]I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[b]44 [/b]Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[b]45 [/b]Then he will answer them, [u]'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me[/u].'
[b]46 [/b][u]And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life[/u]."

is this not a glaring example that the very things your opponent says are not important are the very things we must do to enter heaven?!?! furthermore, your opponent says that all we must do is worship God. but, to worship God is to do his will, and his will is obviously that we help the least of his brethren. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" ([b]John 14:15[/b]).


[quote]Ok besides that, he also says we are saved by Grace. Could someone pllleeaase explain grace and what it does for us? I don't really understand it.[/quote]
to that i say AMEN! we are indeed saved by grace. it is important tho to understand what grace is and how it works. from [url="http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/grace.html"][b]here[/b][/url] we find an excellent definition, which i would like to borrow:[list]


[*]Protestants usually define grace as "God's unmerited favor towards us in Christ". Though not incorrect, this definition is incomplete, for grace also includes the divine gifts which flow from this favor, such as our new life in Christ, God's indwelling Presence and the ability to bear spiritual fruit.


[/list]once we know what grace is, we must also identify two types of grace: [i]sanctifying [/i]and [i]actual[/i]. sanctifying grace is that gift from God which results in our sanctification, our being made truly clean. it is this grace that wipes away the stain or original sin and all sins that we have comitted. as such, this is the grace we receive thru baptism, reconciliation, and anointing of the sick.

the second kind of grace, termed actual, is that grace which compels us to do good and turn away from evil. it is this grace that compelled the man to go to the shelter and feed the hungry. it is this grace that compels us to do every good work. likewise, whenever we resist temptation and make an actual decision to avoid sin, it is this grace that has been our aid.

it is also very important to note that these graces in no way interfere w/ our free will. God gave us the inherent right to choose. as such, his grace does not force us to do anything. he does not cleanse us against our will and he does not force us to do good works. instead, he reaches out his hand to give us the gift of his grace, and we choose to accept or reject it. in accepting it, we cooperate w/ God for our salvation. we use the free will he has given us to do his will.


[quote]AND finally. How do the Sacraments aid in our path to salvation? That is, are they necessary for salvation? What is the case with the Sacraments in relation to salvation?[/quote]
well, baptism is absolutely necessary. since we know not when death will come upon us, it is critical that original sin be wiped away as soon as possible. baptism does this for us. are the others absolutely necessary? well, since we know that other christians--who are invincibly ignorant--do in fact find heaven w/o them, one could say that they are not an absolute necessity. but, i would say that the path to heaven is much more difficult and nowhere near as sure w/o them. afterall, the sacraments are definite ways in which God gives us his grace. it's as if he has said to his Church, "give my grace in this way," and to his people, "receive my grace in this way. in so doing, you have my SOLEMN GUARANTEE that my grace will be yours."

your opponent has said "salvation is by grace." well, as catholics, this is how we recieve grace: through the sacraments. as such, they are quite necessary, and we can only pray that God will give his grace in some special way to those who cannot partake of them.


[quote]Sorry for all the questions and the long post, but I gotta have a strong defense![/quote]
no problem bro. you came to the right place i'm sorry that no one was able to respond sooner.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

Edited November 4, 2004 by phatcatholic

[FiZzGiG]

So can you lose Grace? Can it increase or decrease?

I know that my opponent says that it neither increases or decreases. Is this the Catholic belief?

[StColette]

Instead of me listing every verse that would deal with the loss of Grace and in dealing with Faith and Good works, try this site [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html[/url] It gives every Bible verse that deals with this subject and explains the verses as well.