TempleofVesarius Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 ok...paraphrase here Jesus said, "You are my Rock, and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH" notice there is no "s" at the end of that word "church" there? So how can anyone claim that all churches are really the same? Doesnt that imply that Jesus has only ONE TRUE CHURCH?....and wouldnt it make sense that his ONE TRUE CHURCH is the one that still stands on the SAME ROCK??? just a thought there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 You are exactly right, JP! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 it's so solid an argument, but they always reject it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 (edited) Well, somewhere down the line, someone came up with the bright idea to translate that phrase from the Greek. NOTE: that Jesus did not speak Greek! (He spoke Aramaic and Hebrew). In Greek, there is a bit of a problem, as "Petros"(masculine) means a small pebble. But "Petras" (feminine) means large rock formation. So, rather than quoting the Aramaic, where Simon BarJonah (Simon, son of Jonah) is given a new name Kepha (or Cephas) by Jesus, which means "Rock," these mistranslating scholars come up with a theory about Peter just being called a little pebble by Jesus, while the "Rock" to which He refers is, basically, their own personal ability to hone in on what God is telling them, or "Divine inspiration." So they believe that Christ was saying Upon Divine Inspiration, I will build My Church. However, anyone who starts his own church, claims that he (or she) was Divinely inspired, yet these churches all contradict each other!!! They might want to look here to see what some of the most revered protestant leaders and scholars have said about "Upon this rock, I will build My Church": http://www.catholicoutlook.com/rock2.html Edited October 5, 2003 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freaky Chik Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 I disagree and if I didn't have to catch the train soon I'd say why. Maybe some other time. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 I disagree and if I didn't have to catch the train soon I'd say why. Maybe some other time. :D Yes, please do explain, FreakyChik Are you a Greek scholar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 In Greek, there is a bit of a problem, as "Petros"(masculine) means a small pebble. But "Petras" (feminine) means large rock formation. So, rather than quoting the Aramaic, where Simon BarJonah (Simon, son of Jonah) is given a new name Kepha (or Cephas) by Jesus, which means "Rock," these mistranslating scholars come up with a theory about Peter just being called a little pebble by Jesus, while the "Rock" to which He refers is, basically, their own personal ability to hone in on what God is telling them, or "Divine inspiration." Actually, from what I've heard, the scholars did not mean to mistranslate rock into pebble. Basically, if they called Peter "Petra," everyone would go "Peter's got a girly name, Peter's got a girly name" and laugh and point. So, you make the work masculine. An interesting point in all of this is that there is only one person before Peter known to have borne the name Kepha, and no one before him was called Petros. So it wasn't like Jesus was calling him Tom. Jesus gave him a name that, in all likelyhood, the apostles and other disciples had never heard before, and the name was the word rock. It seems like it would have been clear to the disciples when Jesus said "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church" what He meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Look at the entire verse in context and the arguement is even stronger: And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 Notice the word "it". Not "them". He established one Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 the body of christ isn't made up soley of buttocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INRIWarrior3 Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Actually Dude, "it" refers to the Church not the Rock/Peter. Secondly, Skuba Steve, watch those low blows (no pun intended but childishly laughing ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Just my personal thoughts on the subject. The following comes from two debates I am having on another forum... No plagiarizing. All is my own work. In 1 Tim. 3:15 it says "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" Now, this verse has parallel meanings relating to the issue. First of all, this verse says that "the Pinnacle and foundation of truth" is the Church. From this we can determine that the Church holds the ULTIMATE truth. The next step is to determine what is meant by the "Church". Many Christians think that it means a "collective body of believers". However, the "collective body of believers are so divided in their beliefs about the ULTIMATE truth(the obtaining of eternal happiness). For examples, some faiths believe all that is necessary for eternal happiness is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins. Others believe that AND the necessity of following the ten commandments. Still others believe in a thing called PREDESTINATION. This is a teaching that says your eternal happiness(or otherwise) is determined before time and that there is absolutely nothing you can do to alter this plan for you. Because of this great variety of opinions on this "ultimate" truth we can know that not only does the term "Church" in this verse not mean "the body of believers" that is often held, we can also know there IS one specific earthly Church that holds these truths. The only question would be, WHICH CHURCH? How do you know? Well, one way would be to look at history. Which Church has always held by the same beliefs? etc. etc. Also you need to look at this fact. If the Church holds the key to eternal happiness, and this Church is one particular Church; then it would have needed to have been around always since the times of Jesus himself. Many protestants claim that their religion teaches what Jesus and the Early Church taught but that it just happened to be the only Church to "REdiscover" this truth. Well then what happened to all of those people that lived during the 1500 years in between. Jesus himself, in the bible, says that Hell shall Never overcome His Church. That would include those years as well as any other. The Catholic Church is the ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, church to span all that amount of time. This is a FACT that is admitted to by even secular historians and openly enemies of the Church. and... are you saying that you don't think that the Catholic Church holds the ultimate truth? If so we can discuss that if you want. Also, there was no Pope yet because Jesus was still on earth. Peter became Pope as soon as Jesus gave him the word. In regards to your passage. The passage although it is true it does not in any way discuss matters of faith. Take this passage which does... John 6:14-68 Don't focus on the Eucharistic part of it right now. You see in this verse that this is the first time in the ministry of Jesus that any of His disciples leave Him because His teaching is too hard to understand. You seem to say that it doesn't matter which Christian faith one is a part of. Jesus didn't seem to hold this view. He knew that they were leaving because they couldn't accept a teaching of His. Notice he didn't say anything to the effect of, "Hey guys, come on now I'm still here. I'm still God's son. Why're you leaving." No. He let them leave and didn't bother trying to bring them back. Then as you read at the end of the passage He turns to His disciples and asks them, "Do you also wish to leave me?" If these disciples knew that they could not truly follow Jesus and in turn reject His teachings. This is in effect, what the Protestants have done. The Catholic Church is the only Church to hold the same teachings, those of the bible, to the end without ever a breach. The people of Jesus' time knew they had to follow Jesus' teachings if they wanted to follow Jesus. So does the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 So they believe that Christ was saying Upon Divine Inspiration, I will build My Church. Never heard that one before. I've always heard that Christ was saying that He would build His Church upon Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Wow my Church is built on Jesus as our foundation, have fun with Peter a mere man as yours.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Wow my Church is built on Jesus as our foundation, have fun with Peter a mere man as yours.... Well, Troop. You can build YOUR Church any way you want. I want to help Jesus build HIS Church and He told ME, via Scripture, Tradition, and in my Heart, that Jesus wasn't lying to me when He said He would build His Church on Peter. Sometimes it's not the quality of the materials, but the skill of the builder. Have fun with human builders, but we'll be here for you when your church washes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 with Jesus as a foundation what have I to worry? with Paul as your foundation what have you to worry? oh wooops, yeah theres alot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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