Pain in Purgatory?

[goldenchild17]

What's it like? Physical, spiritual, emotional? Can we even have an idea? Do the fires alluded to in Scripture give us an idea.

[phatcatholic]

from the New Advent entry, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#IV"][b]Purgatory[/b][/url]:[list]
[*][b]Nature of Punishment [/b]

It is clear from the Liturgies and the Fathers above cited that the souls for whose peace sacrifice was offered were shut out for the time being from the sight of God. They were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". Still, for them "death is the termination not of nature but of sin" (Ambrose, "De obitu Theodos."); and this inability to sin makes them secure of final happiness. This is the Catholic position proclaimed by Leo X in the Bull "Exurge Domine" which condemned the errors of Luther.

Are the souls detained in purgatory conscious that their happiness is but deferred for a time, or may they still be in doubt concerning their ultimate salvation? The ancient Liturgies and the inscriptions of the catacombs speak of a "sleep of peace", which would be impossible if there was any doubt of ultimate salvation. Some of the Doctors of the Middle Ages thought uncertainity of salvation one of the severe punishments of purgatory. (Bellarmine, "De Purgat." lib. II, cap. iv); but this opinion finds no general credit among the theologians of the medieval period, nor is it possible in the light of the belief in the particular judgment. St. Bonaventure gives as the reason for this elimination of fear and of uncertainty the intimate conviction that they can no longer sin (lib. IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1 q. iv): "Est evacuatio timoris propter confirniationem liberi arbitrii, qua deinceps scit se peccare non posse" (Fear is cast out because of the strengthening of the will by which the soul knows it can no longer sin), and St. Thomas (dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) says: "nisi scirent se esse liberandas suffragia non peterent" (unless they knew that they are to be delivered, they would not ask for prayers).


[*][b]Purgatorial Fire [/b]

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on tlils subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").
[/list]there are also many articles on Purgatory in the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=8020"][b][i]Last Things[/i] entry[/b][/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited November 2, 2004 by phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

thank ya much.

[phatcatholic]

also note that it would be spiritual and emotional, but not physical b/c spirits are not united w/ their bodies until the end of time, at which point purgatory ceases to exist

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita[/quote]

It will be graver fire than whatever man is able to experience in this life.

[quote]Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur[/quote]

One punishment is of forfeiture, in as much as they are kept from the divine vision; the others are feelings according to what they suffer from fire.

[quote]Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta[/quote]

It is graver than all temporal punishment, which the soul, only joined to the body, sustains (i.e. the punishment is worse than any punishment experience when the soul is in the body).

[phatcatholic]

that's why Raphael is my freakin DAWG!!!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Nov 2 2004, 02:14 PM'] that's why Raphael is my freakin DAWG!!! [/quote]
:irate: How dare you call me a dog!!!














































Oh, wait...is that good...?

[phatcatholic]

hehe, yea, its all good bro

[Didacus]

But purgatory is predominantly not a punishment but a purification is it not?


Hell is punishment, not purgatory.

[praying4carmel]

I may be way off here but I think of Purgatory in my own mind kind of like that horrible gray city & cities in CS lewis's "Great Divorce".

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

Purgatory is not punishment, it is a refinement. It hurts when God chips away at our attachments to sin, but in the end we are better for it.

[goldenchild17]

this is old school right herr.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1438933' date='Dec 27 2007, 04:31 PM']Purgatory is not punishment, it is a refinement. It hurts when God chips away at our attachments to sin, but in the end we are better for it.[/quote]

It is both a purification and a punishment. In purgatory we are punished for our venial sins and temporal debt of mortal sins as well as being purified from them that we may enter into everlasting life.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1439254' date='Dec 28 2007, 04:50 PM']It is both a purification and a punishment. In purgatory we are punished for our venial sins and temporal debt of mortal sins as well as being purified from them that we may enter into everlasting life.[/quote]
See Part I, Article 12, Section(?) III, paragraphs 1030, 1031, and 1032 of the CCC. I could type it out, but you could read it just as easily. It doesn't mention anything about punishment.

Edited December 31, 2007 by USAirwaysIHS

[mortify]

I actually had a similar discussion with a friend earlier today, on whether the fires of hell are literal. What's interesting is that many of the fathers and theologians believed the fires of purgatory to be the same as the fires of hell, and more so, that the fire is a unique but material fire created for carrying out God's justice. As to how a soul can be punished by a material fire, the theologians say if God has the power to unite the immaterial soul to a material body, and thereby experience bodily pain, He can also unite the soul to the material fire of hell. Though the theologians do say as others have noted that the physical pain is not the worst torment of hell or purgatory.

Just to be clear, the pains of purgatory are not of the same severity even though it shares its fire with hell.


[quote]WHAT IS PURGATORY?

It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain.[/quote]

From Fr Paul O'Sullivan's book, _Read me or Rue it_


I pray that I never have to taste the fire of hell or purgatory, and I pray you guys never have to either. I hope you'll pray the same for me.