Ash Wednesday Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 1 2004, 03:00 AM'] There are more things at stake than women having abortions. [/quote] Of course. Not just the women having the abortions, but the 6+ million people that are killed each year by it. Do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 God bless you Nathan. I know how hard voting can be for us Catholics really trying to pray and think this through and do the right thing. Each and every one of us should spend a moment in prayer to the Holy Spirit and ask for his guidance before we step behind the curtain. I would seriously consider voting third party because there is a lot about the Republican party that bugs me and I disagree with -- but it is because this is a close race and will affect our supreme court, the stakes really are way too high for me to, in a sound conscience, do that this time. This is my view about voting, and this goes for everyone: We can't let ourselves be blinded by sheer emotion, sheer rage, sheer zeal, sheer positive charisma even. That's the kind of thing terrorists do -- they are blinded by hatred, and sheer emotion. I hate to say it but the same goes for political partisans here in this country. When you have a teacher kicking a college student for wearing a partisan sweatshirt, then there's something seriously wrong and they need to take a look at themselves long and hard and examine their lives. I can see why a lot of people really hate Bush, but they really don't have a lot to be proud of with that kind of hatred. I can say there are times when what we feel, our emotions, can be deceiving. Conscience is not the same as "feelings." Just because I want to punch someone's lights out doesn't mean that's necessarily the right thing to do. It is objectively what we know with our intellect what is right and wrong. When we operate by our conscience in this way, we do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SignOfTheCross Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Well, the letter is entirely judgemental and ignorant sorry to say. If you think Mr Bush is such an evil doer, why not just abstain from voting? Why choose the "lesser evil", when you can choose neither? His first job is to serve and protect the United States of America, not Catholicism, so why have a cry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Sir Myztiq what is more important than the death of 4000 babies a day. Why do you think Social Security is failing, because we have murdered future taxpayers to feed into it. The letter is honest and forthright about what GF believes. Good Friday is faithful to his conscience AND the Church which is about as good as it can get. Sign we have a moral obligation to vote. The President is called to defend the couintry - all of our country. Our documents say we are entitled to LIFE, Liberty , and the pursuit of happiness. Notice LIFE comes first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SignOfTheCross Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 1 2004, 07:23 AM'] Sign we have a moral obligation to vote. The President is called to defend the couintry - all of our country. Our documents say we are entitled to LIFE, Liberty , and the pursuit of happiness. Notice LIFE comes first. [/quote] Not quite. If Good Friday believes he is giving power to an [i]evil[/i] candidate certainly he has no moral obligation to vote. Furthermore, I'm sure there are other pro life candidates out there he can vote for. Certainly he has no moral "obligation" to vote for Bush, I'm befuddled as to why someone who expresses such contempt towards your President would cast a vote for him when surely there are other, more moral (as in less "evil") alternatives to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Throwing your vote to a candidate that has no chance of winning is as bad as not voting at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 1 2004, 09:03 AM'] Throwing your vote to a candidate that has no chance of winning is as bad as not voting at all. [/quote] I'm not sure it's as bad, but it's pretty silly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 I see that Abe Lincoln had it right when he said that you can't please all of the people all of the time . . . [quote name='SirMyztiq']Dude that letters sounds more Pro-Kerry than Pro-Bush. Personally I think that is a shame and I think you should go by your gut and be more broad on what you really believe and feel about this man you are voting for. There are more things at stake than women having abortions.[/quote] Like I said, I don't like President Bush. I'm voting for him because the Church teaches that abortion is the greatest evil of our time, and there would be no proportionate reason to vote for Sen. Kerry -- President Bush, as bad as he is, has not supported legislation that has aided in the murder of 1,750,656 infants and growing each day. And that's pretty much what it comes down to. Even though I don't have much experience with babies and thus have trouble understanding that an unborn baby is a human life, I accept the Church's teaching and I choose to vote according to it -- instead of according to my gut. My gut is very fallible, I've learned, but the Church's teaching isn't. [quote name='SignoftheCross']Well, the letter is entirely judgemental and ignorant sorry to say. If you think Mr Bush is such an evil doer, why not just abstain from voting? Why choose the "lesser evil", when you can choose neither? His first job is to serve and protect the United States of America, not Catholicism, so why have a cry?[/quote] I won't abstain from voting because it's my civic duty, both as a Catholic and as an American, to vote. The Church's teaching is pretty clear that Catholics are obliged to vote. There was never any question that I would be voting for [i]somebody[/i], that just went without saying. [quote name='SignoftheCross']Not quite. If Good Friday believes he is giving power to an evil candidate certainly he has no moral obligation to vote. Furthermore, I'm sure there are other pro life candidates out there he can vote for. Certainly he has no moral "obligation" to vote for Bush, I'm befuddled as to why someone who expresses such contempt towards your President would cast a vote for him when surely there are other, more moral (as in less "evil") alternatives to choose from.[/quote] The reason I don't choose one of the third party candidates, some of whom are more pro-life and less evil than President Bush, is because President Bush is the only [i]viable[/i] candidate who opposes abortion at all. Voting for a third party candidate at this point would be, in effect, to give a vote to Sen. Kerry. While I certainly won't hold it against anyone else for voting third party, I feel called as a Catholic, difficult as it is for me, to vote for President Bush. I justify this decision with Cardinal Ratzinger's words at the end of the memo he sent to Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops: [quote]A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate's permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.[/quote] I'm not voting for President Bush [i]because[/i] of his slightly permissive stand on abortion, nor am I voting for him [i]because[/i] of the other things he's done that I consider evil -- but rather, in spite of them. I'm voting for him because I believe there are proportionate reasons to vote for him, instead of voting for a third party candidate. The proportionate reason is saving the lives of at least some of the millions of infants who will be killed in our country if abortion doesn't end or if it isn't at least limited. I believe that there is at least some chance that President Bush will save some of these lives, whereas I don't believe that Sen. Kerry will do anything to save their lives given his endorsement by the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and NARAL Pro-Choice America, and his 0% rating from National Right to Life. If there were a viable candidate who had a less permissive stand on abortion than President Bush does, I would be voting for that person instead. This is not about the candidates, it's about abortion. It must end, and I can't cooperate with any candidate who would only seek to prolong it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Booyahh! That's the GoodFriday I respect even when I may not agree 100% with him, I must acknowledge he put thought and prayer into it and obvioulsy applied his intelligence honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 1 2004, 10:03 AM'] Throwing your vote to a candidate that has no chance of winning is as bad as not voting at all. [/quote] I am not bound by any moral law whatsoever to vote for a lesser candidate simply because he has a better chance of winning. This is one of my biggest problems with the American system. This is a classic example of what Plato and Aristotle referred to a "Tryanny of the Majority". I'm expected to vote for a candidate who is less Catholic on every single issue simply because everyone else on the consevative side is voting for him. I don't think so. I'm voting for the best candidate. What everyone else does is their problem. Vote Catholic! Vote Peroutka! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx']I am not bound by any moral law whatsoever to vote for a lesser candidate simply because he has a better chance of winning. This is one of my biggest problems with the American system. This is a classic example of what Plato and Aristotle referred to a "Tryanny of the Majority". I'm expected to vote for a candidate who is less Catholic on every single issue simply because everyone else on the consevative side is voting for him. I don't think so. I'm voting for the best candidate. What everyone else does is their problem. Vote Catholic! Vote Peroutka![/quote] I would actually prefer to vote for Michael Peroutka, and I respect your decision to vote for him. The reason I'm not voting for him is that, after considering the Church's teaching on abortion and the gravity of the situation in this country, I feel that it would be counterproductive to vote for a candidate who isn't viable if it would mean costing the viable, somewhat pro-life candidate the election and giving it to the totally pro-abortion candidate. I'm in a battleground state, so the power of my vote and the votes of those in my state (Ohio) are not to be underestimated, and I feel more pressured, I think, than people in states that are not battleground states and are decidedly for Kerry or for Bush. Michael Peroutka is my favored candidate, but I feel that voting for him could wind up costing President Bush the election and handing it to Sen. Kerry -- and I can't, in good conscience, do that. But I do respect your decision to do it and I don't think that you're necessarily wrong for doing it, it's just not something I'm in a position to do personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I understand what you are saying, Good Friday. If I was in a battleground state I would have to take that into consideration. However, I am not, so my decision is easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote]President Bush, as bad as he is, has not supported legislation that has aided in the murder of 1,750,656 infants and growing each day[/quote] try 44,000,000 since '73. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='SirMyztiq' date='Nov 1 2004, 04:00 AM'] There are more things at stake than women having abortions. [/quote] More things at stake? Certainly. More important things at stake? Not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 1 2004, 10:33 AM'] I am not bound by any moral law whatsoever to vote for a lesser candidate simply because he has a better chance of winning. This is one of my biggest problems with the American system. This is a classic example of what Plato and Aristotle referred to a "Tryanny of the Majority". I'm expected to vote for a candidate who is less Catholic on every single issue simply because everyone else on the consevative side is voting for him. I don't think so. I'm voting for the best candidate. What everyone else does is their problem. Vote Catholic! Vote Peroutka! [/quote] We cannot reduce the Faith to just laws and moral norms. There is a reason we do things the way we do, and it is greater than laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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