Muslim infux,

[Balthazor]

I just thought this was interesting.....

[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/24/international/europe/24spain.html"]http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/24/internat...pe/24spain.html[/url]

I would love to hear your thoughts and reactions.

God Bless,
Balthazor

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Can't see it 'cause I refuse to be a member of the NY times.....

[Ricky2]

BALTHAZOR

can you copy the article over or paraphase what it says....I too do not want to support the NY Times in any way....even by subscibing to a free web site!

Ricky2

[Balthazor]

If you are worried about the cost, it is free and they won't send you a bunch of stuff on your email. Other than that what do you all have against the times?

[Balthazor]

Spain Is Seeking to Integrate Growing Muslim Population
By MARLISE SIMONS

Published: October 24, 2004
SEVILLE, Spain - La Giralda, this city's grand tower, with its warm terra-cotta colors, delicate brick patterns and a height of almost 300 feet, was once called Spain's perfect minaret. Its twin stands in Marrakesh, Morocco, a reminder of the centuries-old ties between the two countries.
Many Spaniards still view North African Arabs and Berbers - Spain's onetime rulers - with suspicion and disdain. Those feelings deepened after Moroccans emerged as the main suspects in the terrorist bombings of Madrid trains in March that killed 192 people.
But Spain has close to a million Muslim immigrants, and the new Socialist government is clearly accepting the fact that most of them are here to stay.
In early October, the government created a foundation to help "minority religions" integrate into Spanish society. Seemingly modest, it is still a remarkable step for this nation once forged by religious wars against the Muslim rulers. Spain's Inquisition persecuted Muslims, Jews and Protestants alike to impose Catholic dominance.
Seville's minaret has been the bell tower of the city's Roman Catholic cathedral for the past 500 years. Today, however, many of those who walk by it daily are again Moroccans, part of the growing number of Muslim immigrants to Spain. While they have not talked about reclaiming the minaret, they are seeking permission to build a large mosque here, as have Islamic immigrants have in six other Spanish cities.
At the moment, Seville's Muslims, many of them clandestine workers, meet in small buildings or discrete prayer rooms. But every demand for a proper house of worship awakens nervousness here.
Many Spaniards still view North African Arabs and Berbers - Spain's onetime rulers - with suspicion and disdain. Those feelings deepened after Moroccans emerged as the main suspects in the terrorist bombings of Madrid trains in March that killed 192 people.
But Spain has close to a million Muslim immigrants, and the new Socialist government is clearly accepting the fact that most of them are here to stay.
In early October, the government created a foundation to help "minority religions" integrate into Spanish society. Seemingly modest, it is still a remarkable step for this nation once forged by religious wars against the Muslim rulers. Spain's Inquisition persecuted Muslims, Jews and Protestants alike to impose Catholic dominance.
The new foundation, with only $3.5 million to start, intends to finance projects for Jews and Protestants as well. But above all it intends to improve the government's relations with Muslims and to give them more of a voice in national issues.
"We have been asking for funds and it's only a small start, but it's positive," said Mansur Escudero of the Islamic Commission of Spain.
Since the Madrid bombings, the Spanish police have stepped up monitoring of terrorist suspects and they track Muslim clerics whom they fear could incite their followers to violence. But at the same time, many Spaniards say that it is indispensable to improve the dialogue with the moderate Muslim majority.
A leading voice for that position is Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, who recently called for "an alliance of cultures" in the Western and Muslim world as a way to isolate those who advocate violence.
Since taking power in March, Spain's new Socialist government has set out to improve its links with Algeria, Tunisia and, above all, Morocco, with which relations soured under Spain's previous conservative administration.
As one of several initiatives, Spain recently announced that 2005 will be The Year of Morocco, while Morocco has declared 2006 to The Year of Spain. The culture ministers of the two countries said that events and themes would include theater, contemporary art exhibitions, translations of literature and restorations of artworks.
The new foundation, however, reflects Spain's quandary when dealing with any religious issue. Spanish officials have openly said they would like to reduce Spanish Muslims' dependence on foreign financing. A number of Spain's 400 Muslim prayer houses and mosques have received money from Libya, Morocco or Malaysia. Europe's largest mosque, located just outside Madrid, was built by Saudi Arabia.
Spain initially planned to subsidize mosques directly, but backed away from that idea. Officials said the government could not justify financing mosques when it is striving for a greater separation between church and state. The government hopes to tackle one of the country's most prickly issues, reducing both the state financing of the Roman Catholic clergy and, in turn, Catholic influence on politics.
Of Spain's 43 million people, only one in five consider themselves practicing Catholics. But the clout of the Catholic hierarchy is still regarded as enormous. The discussion about financing other religions has drawn fresh attention to this issue.
In keeping with a longstanding pact with the Vatican that dates to the time of Generalissimo Francisco Franco, the government pays the clergy's salaries and meets many other costs for the Catholic Church. In next year's budget, which was just announced, the government will pay $175 million in salaries for the clergy. Its real contribution to the church, though, will far exceed that.
It is not yet clear how the new foundation's money will be distributed, or how much will be available for Spain's estimated 15,000 Jews or for its Protestants, especially the evangelical denominations, who are said to have 300,000 members.
Mr. Escudero, of the Islamic Commission, a former Catholic, brushed aside the differences. He said Muslim groups should concentrate on getting public financing in proportion to their numbers. Either the government should contribute fairly to all religions, or to none, he said.
The new foundation "could become just a cover-up for a very unjust and lopsided situation," he said, referring to the government payments to the Catholic Church. "We have debated going to the constitutional court over this," he said, "but we think it's better to avoid confrontation."

New York Times Oct 29

[Ricky2]

The NY Times is the most influential newspaper in the country. It is also the leading source of pro left wing propaganda. It openly advocates secularism and opposes Christianity in the bulk of its editorials. But worst of all, it slants its news coverage, which should be non-partison and accurate, to favor the left and dis the right.
I'm suprised you do not seem to know this!
Ricky2

[Balthazor]

I get my news from a variety of sources, I am hoping you do too. And I tend not to read the editorials in the New York Times.

I am well aware of spin, every news source I have ever read or watched or heard has had it's own spin, including and not limited to FOX news, CNN, BBC, ABC, NBC, AlJazeera and several of the scholarly journals I read.....lets face it no one is completely impartial.

I posted this specifically because of the Religious and secular dissonance in the article...that is what makes it interesting and a good topic for debate.

By the way.....
I am not a conservative or a liberal, a republican or a democrat....
I am an independent.
If you must label me as one or the other then label me as Catholic. for that is where I pledge my alligence......the President's Faithful Servant ....BUT GOD'S FIRST.

Balthazor

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote]Europe's largest mosque, located just outside Madrid, was built by Saudi Arabia.[/quote]

Saudia Arabia is funding mosques all over. I wonder when they'll start letting Christians fund churches on their soil...

Aside from the token (albeit welcome) gesture from Qatar to build churches in their country, I think religious liberty for non-Muslims in much of the Middle East is a long way off.

[RandomProddy]

Interesting article. There are definately more than a few muslims in Europe.

[HS_Dad]

One of the great historic themes of the 21st century will be the growing Islamicization of Europe....

A theme we are seeing in America is the Enlightenment - Secularist mindset versus those who believe in a God who acts in Revelation (orthodox Catholics, Evangelicals and observant Jews)... And abortion has become the proxy battle. Unfortunately so many nominal Christians (liberal Catholics - mainline Protestants) have bought into secularist perspectives that they are deluded from realizing the meta struggles occurring in our political system.

Read Philip Jenkins book "The Coming Christendom"... Christianity is becoming increasingly a religion of the third world: Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

We should figure out ways to make small vibrant cells of Christian communities in Europe to see if this Islamicization can be arrested...... From an earthly perspective, it is probably futile... "But these three remain: faith, hope, and love and the greatest of these is love." As Christians, we are called to not lose faith!!

[Balthazor]

Actually I would go furthur to point out that Catholicism, specifically is the religion of the third (developing) world.

I just think we have gotten a little too eager to give up our identity as Christian, to appease a few dissenters who think that Christians being openly religious is somehow offensive.

They need to get over it and we need to stand strong.

Balthazor