Church's Stand

[Balthazor]

Okay,
After becoming invovlved on the death penalty thread, and seeing different people use the church to argue for and against the Death Penalty...I want to know what EXACTLY is the Catholic Church's official stand on capital punishment??

Officially....not just what one bishop says I mean the official church teaching.
From what I understand the Church only supports it in extreme circumstances.

Could someone clear this up for me?

Balthazor

[CatholicforChrist]

Here is a comprehensive and logical look at the death penalty. There has not been much coherent argumentation done. It has been a lot of opinion so far. Here goes:

"Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." c.f., Genesis ix.6

"He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death." c.f., Exodus xxi.12

Numbers XXV almost in its entirety illustrates God's institution of the death penalty and the means by which it should be instituted. The most relevant statement in this chapter not only allows the death penalty but absolutely commands it: "Defile not the land of your habitation, which is stained with the blood of the innocent: neither can it otherwise be expiated, but by his blood that hath shed the blood of another. And thus shall your possession he cleansed, myself abiding with you. For I am the Lord that dwell among the children of Israel." c.f., Numbers xxxv.33, 34

"In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land: that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord." Psalm C

"Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake." c.f., Romans xiii.1-5 (emphasis added)

"He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Apocalypse xiii.10

All of these verses of the Bible illustrate the right and the duty of the government to execute the guilty. It should be noted the purpose of the death penalty as found in Sacred Scripture. Is the purpose solely in order to protect the innocent? It surely is not. There is very little mention of protecting the innocent. Rather, Sacred Scripture states that the death penalty is a form of justice for an action wrongly taken against another, a punishment for guilt. This is illustrated most strongly in Numbers XXXV and implicitly in the other verses. The Roman Catechism reaffirms this concept of the death penalty, that it should be used both as a means of protecting the innocent but also as a means of instituting justice with the authority which God has given the government, c.f., Romans xiii. The Roman Catechism, also called the Catechism of the Council of Trent, gives a reaffirmation of the concept of the death penalty as given to us from God and as practiced by the Jews and recorded by Sacred Scripture. It states:

"Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. (N.B., the punishment of the guilty is listed before the protection of the innocent) The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord." c.f., Roman Catechism, On the Fifth Commandment (emphasis added)

The Roman Catechism here clearly reaffirms the constant teaching from Scripture as well as the historical use of the death penalty by the Jews and, more importantly, in the context of the tradition of the Church. It continues the belief that the punishment of the guilty is the primary intention and effect of the death penalty and calls the execution of criminals an act in paramount obedience to the Fifth Commandment. Finally, it calls to mind the words of David, thus reaffirming the Old Testament decrees as valid teachings concerning the death penalty. The idea that the death penalty is not necessary is a ridiculous claim to any informed Catholic, or human being for that matter. The death penalty is not only allowed by the Church but is commanded. God did not only give the government the right to kill criminals, but He commanded it, as is seen in Numbers XXXV and in Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans. It should be noted that the comments of the new Catechism leave the idea of justice completely out of the question when considering the death penalty and that the claims made in the Catechism should be critiqued heavily for several reasons. Firstly, the new Catechism's claim that the death penalty has been solely instituted to protect the innocent finds no origin in Church tradition or even human history. Secondly, the new Catechism provides no reference to previous Church teaching on the matter to support its claims. Thirdly, the new Catechism's claims concerning the death penalty are simply pastoral opinions by the authors and certainly do not enjoy infallibility. Fourthly, it can be derived that the new Catechism's decrees concerning the death penalty can be and must be rejected by faithful Catholics insofar as they are altogether unsupported, they find no precedence in even human history let alone Church tradition, and they are contrary to the teachings of a previous Catechism as well as the constant teaching of Sacred Scripture. God bless.



The teaching in the Roman Catechism is a sort of exposition concerning the death penalty, but it is a comprehensive teaching including the commands of God in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed, etc. As you have read above, God Himself has commanded the death penalty. No pastoral teaching can reverse the [i]infallible, unwritten Laws of Heaven [/i](Antigone).

[Guest Aluigi]

[b]CCC 2267[/b] [quote]Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent.[/quote]

Criminals who will remain violent while in prison would be justly punished by the death penalty

[ironmonk]

Those who argue against the death penalty are wrong because they are arguing with the Church. The key is [i][b]"if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."[/b][/i]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm[/url]
From the Catechism of The Catholic Church:

[b]2267 [/b]
Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."68



[b]2306 [/b]
Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.104




God Bless,
ironmonk

[CatholicforChrist]

Like I said, God's commands are not trumped by a fallible opinion of someone even if he is the Holy Father and the Head of the Church. While he has authority to bind and loose, the Holy Father's pastoral opinions on the death penalty and other social issues have to be scrutinized in light of tradition. The Church (and the Bible, and thus God Himself) has always taught that the death penalty is not only permissible but also necessary and obligatory. This cannot be overturned. The Church, Bible, and thus God have also taught that the death penalty is an instrument of justice, not only a defense of the public. God bless.

[Balthazor]

Thank you all this was this confirms what I believe further.
I don't have my catechism with me here....so I was unsure.

God Bless,

Balthazor

[Guest Aluigi]

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Auhtority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." -Pope John Paul II, [i]Apostolic Constitution[/i] Fidei Depositum

When the Catechism is taught correctly, it is to be trusted as part of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

[CatholicforChrist]

Well, there are some occasions when the new catechism contradicts tradition (possibly Tradition) in its assessment of several things, but this does not in any way detract from the Church's infallibility. It is the Pope's personal political decision. The same way that there have been Popes in the past to make political decisions that could be called faulty, the same is true here. If the claim of the CCC is that the death penalty's sole end is to protect society from harm, that is erroneous. The primary end is to institute justice. The secondary end is to protect society. God Himself has [b]commanded[/b] the death penalty for murder [b]to remove the blood guilt from the land[/b]. This is not protecting the public; it is expiation for sins.

[Guest Aluigi]

the CCC does not contradict tradition. there is nothing wrong with allowing those who have murdered to live with lifelong punishment if it is a practical and possible alternative.

[Balthazor]

Sorry CatholicForChrist I am with Aluigi and the CCC on this one.

[CatholicforChrist]

Alugi, how do you reconcile that with the Bible and Catholic teaching before the CCC. Specifically, and this is the only thing I want an answer to, how do you reconcile the CCC's idea with the God's explicit command from the Bible: "Defile not the land of your habitation, which is stained with the blood of the innocent: neither can it otherwise be expiated, but by his blood that hath shed the blood of another. And thus shall your possession he cleansed, myself abiding with you. For I am the Lord that dwell among the children of Israel." c.f., Numbers xxxv.33, 34

God explicitly states that the blood of the innocent--the victim of a murder--stains the land and can only be expiated by executing the killer with the death penalty. "And thus shall your possession be cleansed, myself abiding with you. I am the Lord that dwell among the children of Israel." That somehow evolves and changes completely into "or you can just put the killer in jail as long as he is not going to hurt anyone else; I will forgive the blood guilt happily; I am no longer a God of wrath or justice; my justice is now void; the only command I have is to be nice to each other; don't worry about all that archaic nonsense about blood guilt, etc" Obviously, that is an exaggeration, but the fact remains: "neither can [the blood guilt] otherwise be expiated, but by his blood hath shed the blood of another" cannot morph into "If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means". This is no disrespect against our Holy Father or some of the Bishops of the world or any Catholics or any theologians so-called. It is simply a recognition of God's command. My question remains, how can the CCC be reconciled to Numbers XXXV? Thanks. God bless.

[Guest Aluigi]

Very easily. God enforces morality stricter in the Old Covenant. A person who kills another forfeits the right to their own life. If that life can be taken away without shedding blood, it is fine. Are you a Biblical fundamentalist? A Biblical literalist? I shouldn't think so. Taking away someone's life by a life imprisonment is a just punishment. Taking away their life by actually executing them is also a just punishment.

[CatholicforChrist]

The Church reads the Bible with a literal "interpretation" but not a literalist one. Literalist means the very words themselves are true. If the Bible says "it was raining cats and dogs" that means the animals were actually falling from the sky. The Church would interpret that literally, that it is raining very hard. That does not mean, however, that the Bible can err in its literal meaning. The Bible is true in all aspects, including its actual words and commands. God Himself commanded the killing of murderers to expiate the blood guilt. This command was never rescinded or loosened, ergo, it remains in tact. The Church has always taught that the Bible is literally accurate and true. Hananiah has some great stuff on this.

[CatholicforChrist]

What evidence is there that God has revoked this command? Further, the Church taught this same thing and practiced it throughout history. The Roman Catechism explains this, but "No servant is greater than his master". The Church is a Servant of God. God has commanded that the death penalty be used. The Church and the Popes throughout history have said that they only maintain the commands of God, the teachings in Scripture, and the teachings of the Fathers. The Church does not invent doctrines. The death penalty is given by God and commanded by Him. The Church does not presume to change what God has ordained. The Church is the Guardian of Truth. The CCC is not infallible, and there are some things in it that are contrary to tradition (and Tradition), but this does not demean the Church or the Pope or anyone else. It is simply a fact. The only cross-reference in the CCC to support the Pope's interpretation of the death penalty is from a speech that he gave...

[Balthazor]

I think that you are treading on dangerous ground challenging the Catechism of the Catholic Church