Good Friday Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote name='CatholicforChrist']Does Rome's voice not count on abortion, stem cell research, and all other social issues? It is ridiculous that people will make minimum wage (which the Church's social doctrine does not demand to be increased or even at a fixed or given amount, only that the workingman be given at least enough for him to live, as stated in Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum) to be an important issue when every basic social issue is broken by that candidate--including the Fifth Commandment, among other things (and the Sixth with his pro-homosexual abomination laws)[/quote] "That candidate"? I'm not discussing "that candidate," I'm discussing the minimum wage. Do you see "that candidate" anywhere in my responses? I didn't think so. I recognize that there are bigger social issues than the minimum wage, but what I'm longing for is an American Church that accepts all of the church's doctrine and not just some of it. I'm longing for Catholics that don't go screaming and whining about everything they [i]like[/i] about the church's doctrine, but then turn around and say: "Well, that's negotiable," when they encounter something they [i]don't like[/i]. The fact is that regardless of the rest of the church's social doctrine, and regardless of its higher import, the church [i]commands[/i] that everyone should have a living wage -- and $5.15 ain't it. What are you going to do about it, faithful son of the church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 But say qfnol31 is right, then to RAISE the minimum wage is not going to make everyone have a living wage. everyone who is willing to work for it deserves a decent living wage. how best to acheive that, I'm not quite sure. But this theory makes me wary of the idea that to achieve that we should raise the minimum wage. If that's gonna cause increased unemployment (if i wasn't so lazy and tired and in need of doing hw i'd look into Ricky2's example to verify) then don't do that. There's probably some plan by which we can get people to not have to take the minimum wage jobs somehow. Teenagers living with their parents who just wanna pay for the latest CD do not deserve a living wage. Adults who live on their own do. There needs to be a policy that deals with the intricacies of this, somehow make it so adults don't need minimum wage jobs, or maybe there be seperate minimum wage based on age levels? I don't know, there's gotta be something better than just a generic raising of the minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi']I don't know, there's gotta be something better than just a generic raising of the minimum wage.[/quote] Well -- and look, I don't mean to be snippy, but I don't think people are grasping this -- we need to come up with some way to resolve this pretty quick, because there are families barely surviving on the minimum wage, with malnourished children who have holes in their clothes and whose shoes are leaking, who can't even afford enough of the basic necessities because their families can't make it on two minimum wage jobs. These are real people we're talking about, not ideas and theories. The reason most people aren't pro-life is because they can't wrap their mind around the idea that the fetus is a human person; am I to assume that the reason we're not doing something about the poor is because enough of us can't wrap our mind around the idea that a poor person is a human person? It would be nice if there were a political party that was pro-life, but that also didn't believe in crucifying the poor and vulnerable who have been born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Thanks for keeping this on topic Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 i think an age-limit minimum wage would be a good idea. people who live on their own and are willing to work should have the oppurtunity to work and get a decent living wage. but if we just hike up the minimum wage we're gonna hurt the economy bad thus not helping stuff. maybe decrease the kid's minimum wage and increase the adult's, keeping the current balance while giving the people who need it to survive and are unable to get a job that pays more than minimum wage the better salary. yeah this is all a bunch of theory, but in order to help the people through government you gotta get the theory right. just giving them better wages if it hurts the economy will just help those specific people while throwing other people down. anyway, i'm likin the fact that i just made up this original idea of age limit stuff, and i'm a teen so it's not like i'm biased. maybe it would work? i don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 you know what I'm doin, I'm writing this idea into a resolution and bill for student congress in argumentation class. that should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi']anyway, i'm likin the fact that i just made up this original idea of age limit stuff, and i'm a teen so it's not like i'm biased. maybe it would work? i don't know...[/quote] What about teen parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 hmm.. maybe you get less only if you live with your parents... o darn, yeah i think this is falling apart. But minimum wage hiking still isn't looking good to me. I don't know exactly what needs to be done, only that something should be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 I think Al is trying to say that maybe Kerry should raise the minimum wage for the middle age workers. Personally, I could see this as bad because then small businesses, especially fast food restaurants, will hire more teens. Also, if the minimum wage is raised for everyone, then the same businesses I mention before must be more choosy, and chances are they'll go with older, more experienced, and more reliable workers. In this case, teens won't be hired as often, and adults will have to work much more to compensate for what their teens could have made. It's actually kinda a problem in Spain where there is no minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicforChrist Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 (edited) GF, sorry since the thread is entitled "Kerry and Minimum Wage" I figured that was the point of the debate. In reply to your question concerning what I will do to fulfill the commands of Pope Leo XIII in [i]Rerum Novarum [/i](among other documents), I see almost no viable solution in the present crisis as a result of industrialization. If we raise the minimum wage, we will be offering a living wage for some but will be depriving some of any money whatsoever (including those who need it to survive) because there would be job cuts. It is problematic, indeed. I only wish there were a way to amend the system instead of trying to work within it. Is there any way to ensure that everyone who needs a living wage can obtain one? If we raise the minimum wage, we help some people to get a better wage, but we also indirectly deprive some of having any wage whatsoever. It is a catch-22. What do you suggest? Edit: by the way, GF, I hope your last comment was not an allusion to William Jennings Bryan's Cross of Gold blasphemy (speech), but the fact that you even allude to any crucifixion in analyzing the conditions of the poor in this country borders on blasphemy in itself. Edited October 29, 2004 by CatholicforChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote name='CatholicforChrist']I only wish there were a way to amend the system instead of trying to work within it. Is there any way to ensure that everyone who needs a living wage can obtain one? If we raise the minimum wage, we help some people to get a better wage, but we also indirectly deprive some of having any wage whatsoever. It is a catch-22. What do you suggest?[/quote] I suggest the complete destruction of capitalism, in favor of a system that is more Christian. Of course, I'm not suggesting that it be replaced by communism or socialism. But surely there is something else? Is capitalism really all we have to work with? If so, God help the world -- and especially the Third World. Of course, that suggestion isn't feasible. Capitalism has gained too strong a foothold to ever be destroyed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Actually, that's Pope Leo XIII speaking. I think John Paul II agrees too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicforChrist Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 (edited) GF, I agree with you completely, then, in that respect. I wish capitalism could be destroyed (with communism and socialism, too), and the feudal system re-implemented, but this is impossible. This would mean a return to the agrarian system and would entail various other changes. Feudalism dominated almost exclusively by villages is the only true Catholic system that has worked in the past. This, of course, only was possible during the reign of Christendom in which the Church had rule and the world was united with one mind under Catholicism. If only this were possible today. Edit: Qfnol, the "edit" of my previous post was directed to GF, not you. Sorry for any confusion. Edited October 29, 2004 by CatholicforChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 perhaps there is some way to make a new workable Catholic system applicable to the times? I think I'm going to try to invent a system that works through capitalism but achieves a better Catholic system somehow. it could be doable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicforChrist Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Well, as far as I understand it (and I think this is the traditional stance by the Chuch), capitalism is erroneous in itself (not necessarily as evil as socialism and communism) but still erroneous and possibly evil. Unadulterated capitalism is just as evil as socialism and communism. As far as I know, capitalism as a system (even a modified system) is still erroneous, but it could be a good intermediary step toward a true Catholic system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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