Vote Kerry . . .

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Oct 27 2004, 09:50 PM'] I said that the above post was going to be my last post, and I intended it to be. However, there are a few more things that I need to address: [/quote]
I do wish you'd stay and go through a whole argument, at least with me.

[quote]Cite a source.  I want to know where the Pope said that he prefers Bush to Kerry.  Isn't there some rule in the guidelines about misrepresenting the teaching of the Pope and/or bishops?[/quote]

The Pope can't say that he favors one over the other or one party over another. I believe that as far as he can go is to set forth guidelines and hope and pray that we make the best choice possible based on a well-formed conscience, which he, I might add, has helped form. Beyond this he or any other Priest is overstepping his bounds.

[quote]Bush appointed pro-choice justices to the Texas Supreme Court; seven of nine justices on the U.S. Supreme Court have been appointed by pro-life Republican Presidents Ford, Reagan and George H.W. Bush.  Their records speak for them, don't you think?[/quote]

Do you have a source for this? I'm not exactly denying it, but it follows under my idea of people trying to reinterpret a document written under Natural Law (look at my other thread).

[qfnol31]

[quote name='BLAZEr' date='Oct 27 2004, 10:50 PM'] And by the way, Justices to the Texas Supreme Court are elected, not appointed. Bush didn't appoint any pro-abortion judges.

Such stupid claims can be easily cleared up by research. [/quote]
Yeah, actually I would know this, I'm voting in a few days...

[Good Friday]

[quote name='qfnol31']I do wish you'd stay and go through a whole argument, at least with me.[/quote]
I used to stay and go through whole arguments, but now I don't stick around for two reasons: I'm not welcome here anymore, and it hurts my feelings to post here anymore.

I've been posting at Phatmass for a very long time, longer than almost everyone on this thread -- certainly longer than the several people who insulted me, all of them Phatmass "infants" compared to how long I've been here. At this point, all of my posts come across as angry and bitter, and I am angry and bitter -- but I haven't always been like this, and I used to love Phatmass and try to contribute to it.

I haven't tried to contribute anything to Phatmass for a long time because it became a very angry and negative place to be for anyone who didn't agree with every little tidbit of doctrine, some of which is not Catholic doctrine, that's believed by the majority of people here. This is the kind of response I always get now, and this is the response I've gotten for a long time -- insults and other unkind remarks that may not be classified as insults. The reason that I'm so insulted is that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic, and the reason that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic is that I'm gay -- and they don't like that, not unless I agree to be celibate and lonely for the rest of my life, and then they'll pretend to like me. But even then, they don't really like me, and they prove that whenever I struggle with how lonely I am because of the doctrine that they want to impose on me and everybody like me.

What the people who post at Phatmass so obviously don't understand is that this isn't just doctrine and ideas, these are people. People are involved. But they don't care about people, as long as their precious doctrines are protected. So let them have their doctrines, but this person doesn't want to post here anymore. This person is very hurt by people he used to think were his friends. He's not stupid enough to think that anymore.

[BLAZEr]

Good Friday, please don't try to pretend that your issues with the Church have to do with Phatmass. And please don't suggest that people on Phatmass don't care about other people, only doctrine. As far as my experience has gone, this is a completely baseless suggestion. And if you were honest with yourself you would know that too.

Some of us have bent over backwards to always make you feel welcomed. Some of us have even defended you against people who attack you over and over again. Some of us are finding it harder and harder to do either, because you don't really make it easy.

But I will continue to try. Continue to love you. Continue to admonish, reprove, encourage, and most of all love. But I can't convince you, I can only do what I feel Christ is calling me to.

So chill out, dude.

[qfnol31]

The bad thing about this is that Bush has been President. I bet everyone disagrees with at least something he has done, and most especially the war. However, this can be a dangerous emotion to let overcome ourselves, for it can very easily blind us to the truth. A lot of people will argue that the truth is subjective in the case of this election, but I must disagree. I think that our job is to discern that truth, for a divided vote among Catholics is dangerous. There are two large problems I see with our society today: 1) the lack of humility and charity, 2) the trying to "get away with as much as we can." The Pope has been quoted saying, [i]The sin of the century is the lack of sense of sin.[/i] It's very true. Today people want to find an excuse for everything that they do. I'm now going to address each of these issues separately, if you don't mind.

[b]1.[/b] The first one is the most important in my opinion. Everyone wants to say that they're right, and this is natural, for eventually you to choose a side and then you have to say you're right. But don't let this blind you to what is being said to you, I don't care if you're pro-Kerry, pro-Bush, pro-Peroutka, etc. The Catholic Church does an excellent job of discussing those issues which make a candidate not elligible. I'm going to tell you something right now, [b]No Matter What, You're Going to Participate in Evil.[/b] It's a hard thing to do, but no matter what you're participating in evil. Now it's our jobs to have a humble heart and say, how can I best limit that evil, forgetting how I stand on different economic or political issues, etc. It's a hard thing to do, but I do believe it is the Catholic stance.

It's true that somethings could be better for our society, but there are also some things that must be found out on our own. The right to life is not one of them. It falls under the Natural Law, as stated again and again, not only by the Papal Magesterium, but also by the Ecuminical Mageseterium. This is very important. How we run our economy is not something that we must all agree on, it is something that it is healthy for disagreement on. It is heathy for Catholics to disagree on how involved the government gets in politics, as long as it does not overstep the bounds of Natural Law. It is against the Natural Law to kill an [i]innocent[/i] human being. It is not against Natural Law to wage a war on another country. This is evident in the fact that the Magesterium has taught, I may even argue infallibly, the idea of Just War Doctrine. If they have to teach it infallibly, that's a hint that it's [i]not[/i] Natural Law and [i]is[/i] Divine Law. This should give you an interesting way to look at the candidates. According to Thomas, non-Catholics are not bound to Divine Law as Catholics are. As Catholic voters, we must remember this, and must vote accordingly. Also, the Magesterium teaches that it is [i]healthy[/i] for there to be disagreement on whether the war is just or not, this is evident in Ratzinger's recent article.

Humility comes in where we must stop trying to force strictly Catholic beliefs on everyone. You'll never win. However, Natural Law is in each and every person. We use this for dialogue, especially for politics. Leithart argues elsewise, and he's a Calvinist. I have an entire reply essay on why Aquinas and the Magesterium disagrees with him. I'll give it to you if you want. My Moral Theology professor agrees with it. We can't look down on everyone because we're Catholic, for that's un-Catholic. [i]Preach the Gospel and if necessary use words.[/i]

I realized how foreign humility is to us when reading Jane Austen's [i]Mansfield Park[/i]. Fanny Price, the main character, shows the heroic virtue of humility. It reminded me of Padre Pio or Thérèse, yet everyone I know hates her! She seems to be incapable of doing anything, but wow, I think she's incredible!


[b]2.[/b] Today it's so easy for people to rationalize what they're doing. One of the easiest ways to do this is to get Human Law to allow it. "Well the government allows it, so it must be okay." This IS NOT okay. Thomas says so himself. We, as Catholics, [i]cannot[/i], [i]should not[/i] give into this philosophy. We are not allowed to commit venial sins, and then say "Oh, it wasn't mortal, so so that's okay." Yet we say, "I firmly intend, with Your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. We do not say that we'll stay away from venial sins. We are better than that. We cannot let those in our country do that, not when the dignity of man is at stake.

Homosexuality, Abortion, Euthanasia, Embryonic Stem Cell Research, Slavery, and Cloning all go against human diginity. An unjust war, the death penalty, and not giving the poor money does not necessarily deny them their dignity. You must separate diginity from justice in this case, because an unjust war does not imply the lack of respect for human dignity. In fact, in the case of the Iraq War, great pains have been taken, as in all recent American wars, to preserve the dignity of the innocent. Everytime in the news something comes on where one of our soldiers mistreats an Iraqi soldier, that person is punished, and this most definately is not condoned by our government.

The reason I bring this up is that people seem to rationalize why they can vote for one candidate or another. Reason is much better than just following your passions, for following our passions alone reduces us to the level of the animals. We can't let this happen to ourselves. We cannot say "Oh, I can vote for such and such, whom I agree with most politically, because he'll do this, this, and this for society." [b][i]NO![/i][/b] The Church specifically says no. Our vote must be based on morality. To base it on something else, such as political affiliation, economics, liberality, conservativity, etc. is to reduce the dignity of a person and his life to nothing special. We must look at the objectively better candidate morally. This means more than just in his stances, but in his actions as well. We must be objective and stop being so subjective to what we believe as individuals. Contrary to popular opinion, Natural Law is pretty specific in this case.
[list]
[*]Do good, avoid evil.
[*]Respect the dignity of man.
[*]Concrete moral norms.
[/list](I leave out the fourth, for we cannot judge it, but it is applying one's conscience in particular situations).

Who follows the first three best? If you want, you can try and argue based on the war that it's Kerry, but that actually doesn't fit into these, but is a fourth situation. Therefore, it makes it more difficult to judge, or so Thomas would say.

My plea to you is to open yourselves, everyone, to what the Church has to say, who follows his respective duty best, and where they lie morally. And then try to limit the evil done.

Now I'm going back to an earlier point I made. No matter what, you're participating in evil. Kerry is definately against the fundamental issues. Bush is against some of them, but is less so. He's more for the war in Iraq (though I somewhat disagree with this statement, right now he just seems to want to clean it up). If you vote for Bush, you are voting for evil. If you vote for Kerry, you are too. Which vote is more evil? I won't tell you, but I bet you can really guess, if you want to be honest with yourself. Now your job is to limit the evil the other can do, or at least, at the very least, [i]attempt[/i] to limit that evil. You will be remotely cooperating in material evil, an evil that is not directly willed, nor wanted, but is necessarily to cooperate because you have no other choice in this case. But do choose the lesser evil please. And make sure your conscience is truly formed too.

Zachary.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Oct 28 2004, 12:50 AM'] [quote name='qfnol31']I do wish you'd stay and go through a whole argument, at least with me.[/quote]
I used to stay and go through whole arguments, but now I don't stick around for two reasons: I'm not welcome here anymore, and it hurts my feelings to post here anymore. [/quote]
Well, I want you here. I like debating, as long as the person I'm debating with is open to truth, as I always try to be, and doesn't try to ignore me.


[quote]I've been posting at Phatmass for a very long time, longer than almost everyone on this thread -- certainly longer than the several people who insulted me, all of them Phatmass "infants" compared to how long I've been here.  At this point, all of my posts come across as angry and bitter, and I am angry and bitter -- but I haven't always been like this, and I used to love Phatmass and try to contribute to it.[/quote]

Have I ever been bitter or angry towards you, or appeared so? If so, I'm sorry, but I never have been in heart. I hope I've never insulted you.

[quote]I haven't tried to contribute anything to Phatmass for a long time because it became a very angry and negative place to be for anyone who didn't agree with every little tidbit of doctrine, some of which is not Catholic doctrine, that's believed by the majority of people here.  This is the kind of response I always get now, and this is the response I've gotten for a long time -- insults and other unkind remarks that may not be classified as insults.  The reason that I'm so insulted is that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic, and the reason that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic is that I'm gay -- and they don't like that, not unless I agree to be celibate and lonely for the rest of my life, and then they'll pretend to like me.  But even then, they don't really like me, and they prove that whenever I struggle with how lonely I am because of the doctrine that they want to impose on me and everybody like me.[/quote]

I'm sorry you feel left out. I bet you have the making to be a great Saint though. It's always been my life-long wish. I have no problem with you being here, or you at all.

[quote]What the people who post at Phatmass so obviously don't understand is that this isn't just doctrine and ideas, these are people.  People are involved.  But they don't care about people, as long as their precious doctrines are protected.  So let them have their doctrines, but this person doesn't want to post here anymore.  This person is very hurt by people he used to think were his friends.  He's not stupid enough to think that anymore.[/quote]

I'm sorry that you get hurt by what people say, I think it's a tragedy that charity is lacking today, and I'm one of those too. Again, I always try to remember how people feel, and respect it.

[God Conquers]

Nathan,
I'm not sure what's gotten you riled up in the last little while, because I've been pretty spotty here the last 2 months, so I don't know many of the newer people.

But, like BLAZEr said, you're always welcome here, and people always do defend you, even if they may also have to admonish you once in a while (like we all have to be admonished).

I enjoy your posts and the arguments (positive) that they almost certainly spawn.

I think we all always must continue to love as best we can... for it's a tough example we strive to follow.

I guess some of this may be because phatmass has grown somewhat since the tightknit community it inevitably was (I guess I came to town near when it really started to grow) and there's always going to be poeple who are not quite sure what's up.

(Rick came back to phatmass again and I was thoroughly dissapointed with the reception he got from some people)

We live, we learn, we grow, we go get lattés.

The ramblepost ends now,

Matt

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Oct 28 2004, 02:50 AM'] [quote name='qfnol31']I do wish you'd stay and go through a whole argument, at least with me.[/quote]
I used to stay and go through whole arguments, but now I don't stick around for two reasons: I'm not welcome here anymore, and it hurts my feelings to post here anymore.

I've been posting at Phatmass for a very long time, longer than almost everyone on this thread -- certainly longer than the several people who insulted me, all of them Phatmass "infants" compared to how long I've been here. At this point, all of my posts come across as angry and bitter, and I am angry and bitter -- but I haven't always been like this, and I used to love Phatmass and try to contribute to it.

I haven't tried to contribute anything to Phatmass for a long time because it became a very angry and negative place to be for anyone who didn't agree with every little tidbit of doctrine, some of which is not Catholic doctrine, that's believed by the majority of people here. This is the kind of response I always get now, and this is the response I've gotten for a long time -- insults and other unkind remarks that may not be classified as insults. The reason that I'm so insulted is that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic, and the reason that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic is that I'm gay -- and they don't like that, not unless I agree to be celibate and lonely for the rest of my life, and then they'll pretend to like me. But even then, they don't really like me, and they prove that whenever I struggle with how lonely I am because of the doctrine that they want to impose on me and everybody like me.

What the people who post at Phatmass so obviously don't understand is that this isn't just doctrine and ideas, these are people. People are involved. But they don't care about people, as long as their precious doctrines are protected. So let them have their doctrines, but this person doesn't want to post here anymore. This person is very hurt by people he used to think were his friends. He's not stupid enough to think that anymore. [/quote]
First the IRS threat and then the gay card.

Nobody really cares about your sexuality except you.

Yes the Church expects people with SSA to be celibate, anybody not married are expected to be celibate as well. You want God and the Church to make exceptions to the rules. Everybody has something they want changed, everyone would like it to be easier!
We are to conform to the Church as best we can, not the Church to us. WE all sin and come back and do the best we can.


Do you walk around all day saying "phatmass made me the way I am today?"

You are welcome at phatmass, your own attitude is what keeps you away. You will always have friends here, even when you try pushing them away.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Oct 27 2004, 09:50 PM'] By the way, being that you own Phatmass, you risk its tax exempt status as a non-profit organization by endorsing political candidates. I'd hate to think anyone might turn you into the IRS. The tax burden might cause Phatmass to cease to exist, huh? [/quote]
Reduced yourself to threats GF?

Wow.

Just wow.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Oct 28 2004, 12:01 AM'] GF has a point Flowery. He was mostly refering to, I think, dUSt's anti Kerry posts. Or favoring to use words to cast Kerry in a negitive light, I admit I do the same to Bush unconusicously, at least when I can spell. This election is really touchy and a lot of groups are looking at non-profits to watch for anything that might be read as an endorsement by an offical of that company of one person or another in public and on the record. Being rough on Kerry is dangerous, but probly not overly so.

[b]Edit:[/b] I am not saying dUSt endorsed anyone, but am just trying to follow GF's though process. [/quote]
ROTFLOL... "cast kerry in a negative light".... Negative light is all kerry has.


Kerry is a liar. Bush is not a liar, only the ignorant and unstudied say that Bush lies. Kerry can be seen lying from week to week by watching the news. Have you been under a rock? I thought you were smarter than that.


THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PRESENTING THE FACTS. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE Church SAYING WHICH CANDIDATE SHOULD BE VOTED FOR.

The Catholic Church is above the US Government. The US Gov HAS NO RIGHT to tell the Catholic Church what to do... NOT even in America.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 28 2004, 07:10 AM'] The Catholic Church is above the US Government. The US Gov HAS NO RIGHT to tell the Catholic Church what to do... NOT even in America.
[/quote]
Here Here!!

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Oct 27 2004, 05:47 PM'] I don't think Bush has done as much as he could to reduce abortions.

[/quote]
Then you haven't been looking, or you are having a problem with thinking. Which is it?



[quote]And on a side note, Ironmonk, the Pope did not endorse Bush [/quote]

I NEVER WROTE HE ENDORSED BUSH.

I wrote that the Pope prefers Bush... and that IS A FACT, according to the Vatican Official in an interview.

If you vote kerry, you've got a lot to learn about Christianity, because appearently you've missed some major points in the teaching.


Someone would have to have no understanding on how to think if they voted for Kerry. Kerry says whatever he thinks people want to hear... that is why he changes he story from day to day... it's been all over the news, only someone who has been grossly fooled, or someone who has no sense of morals would vote for kerry.

[ironmonk]

[url="http://www.buttondepress.com/BostonManifesto/stolenhonor.wmv"]http://www.buttondepress.com/BostonManifesto/stolenhonor.wmv[/url]

[jasJis]

Good Friday,
I love you, man. Being gay & celibate does not mean being lonely & sad. Being gay and celibate is the same as being hetero and celibate. Hell, I've been married for 20+ years and struggle with loneliness. Life is a struggle, but the biggest struggle is keeping in mind that our relationship with people is not the standard that we need to measure our relationship with God. Even when people & the world seem to sh*t on us, that doesn't mean that God doesn't love us just as dearly, just as intimately, just as forgivingly. Remember the parable from last Sunday about the Pharasee & the tax collector praying. God is most pleased when we recognize our need for Him, not when we lead a "perfect" lifestyle and forget how much forgiveness and healing He gives us in His love for us.

So people are crappy with ya. That doesn't mean God doesn't love you and you have to find love from people, whether the same sex or not. Physical love is important, but all love comes from God so it's route is through the stimulatin of the soul, not our sex organs.

Nathan. With love that comes through Jesus, I will keep you in my prayers.
Greg

Edited October 28, 2004 by jasJis

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Oct 28 2004, 12:50 AM'] [quote name='qfnol31']I do wish you'd stay and go through a whole argument, at least with me.[/quote]
I used to stay and go through whole arguments, but now I don't stick around for two reasons: I'm not welcome here anymore, and it hurts my feelings to post here anymore.

I've been posting at Phatmass for a very long time, longer than almost everyone on this thread -- certainly longer than the several people who insulted me, all of them Phatmass "infants" compared to how long I've been here. At this point, all of my posts come across as angry and bitter, and I am angry and bitter -- but I haven't always been like this, and I used to love Phatmass and try to contribute to it.

I haven't tried to contribute anything to Phatmass for a long time because it became a very angry and negative place to be for anyone who didn't agree with every little tidbit of doctrine, some of which is not Catholic doctrine, that's believed by the majority of people here. This is the kind of response I always get now, and this is the response I've gotten for a long time -- insults and other unkind remarks that may not be classified as insults. The reason that I'm so insulted is that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic, and the reason that I'm a "heterodox" Catholic is that I'm gay -- and they don't like that, not unless I agree to be celibate and lonely for the rest of my life, and then they'll pretend to like me. But even then, they don't really like me, and they prove that whenever I struggle with how lonely I am because of the doctrine that they want to impose on me and everybody like me.

What the people who post at Phatmass so obviously don't understand is that this isn't just doctrine and ideas, these are people. People are involved. But they don't care about people, as long as their precious doctrines are protected. So let them have their doctrines, but this person doesn't want to post here anymore. This person is very hurt by people he used to think were his friends. He's not stupid enough to think that anymore. [/quote]
I miss the Good Friday that wrote this:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=3420&hl="]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=3420&hl=[/url]

Please remember that the people here do care for you. You have my prayers.