Vatican II

[Theoketos]

^No one can seek directly some thing evil, because all evil is a privation of Good. There is nothing that is pure evil, even if some things come really close.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Oct 29 2004, 06:25 PM']Actually, everyone seeks good, they just have a lack to due order of good.  It's impossible to seek evil directly.  Give me an example and I'll show you what I mean.

^No one can seek directly some thing evil, because all evil is a privation of Good. There is nothing that is pure evil, even if some things come really close. [/quote]
Oh really? St. Paul says differently..

[quote name='Romans 3:9-20']9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
  "There is no one righteous, not even one;
        11there is no one who understands,
      no one who seeks God.
    12All have turned away,
      they have together become worthless;
  there is no one who does good,
      not even one."[3]
    13"Their throats are open graves;
      their tongues practice deceit."[4]
  "The poison of vipers is on their lips."[5]
        14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[6]
    15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
        16ruin and misery mark their ways,
    17and the way of peace they do not know."[7]
        18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[8]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. [/quote]

[ICTHUS]

It should be noted, lest anyone is led further astray by what is said above, that the above is nothing more than damnable works-salvation. In this system, we are saved by the [b]work[/b] of co-operating with God's grace. There is no free, sovereign, undeserved grace for the sinner here, only another Law, dressed up in frilly clothes disguised as the Gospel of grace.

[Justified Saint]

Thus Paul describes the law which the Christian is happily free from since under the law there is the active denial of grace which will lead all men to spiritual harm and evil. Grace is that free gift that God dispenses to everyone in some measure or another since we are all made in his likeness and image. The law is quite unnatural

Acts 10:34-35:
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality.
Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him."

The Calvinist heresy is much worse since it seeks to deny something more important, creation itself. Brownson successfully argues that Protestantism is basically Pantheism among many other things which is why God must ultimately be the author of sin for the Calvinist. The Christian can rejoice, however, in the goodness God's creation.

Acts 10:28:
"God has shown me that I should not call any person profane or unclean."

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Nov 3 2004, 11:26 PM']

[/quote]
[quote]Thus Paul describes the law which the Christian is happily free from since under the law there is the active denial of grace which will lead all men to spiritual harm and evil.  Grace is that free gift that God dispenses to everyone in some measure or another since we are all made in his likeness and image.  The law is quite unnatural 

Acts 10:34-35:
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. 
Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him."[/quote] Here you would have Paul contradicting himself, by your reading of the text. Certainly, whoever fears Him is acceptable, but who is it who acts uprightly and fears Him, [i]but the one upon whom He has mercy [/i](Romans 9)

[quote]The Calvinist heresy is much worse since it seeks to deny something more important, creation itself.  Brownson successfully argues that Protestantism is basically Pantheism among many other things which is why God must ultimately be the author of sin for the Calvinist.  The Christian can rejoice, however, in the goodness God's creation. 

Acts 10:28:
"God has shown me that I should not call any person profane or unclean."[/quote] God is not the author of sin. He foreknew and predestined it for His glory, but it is creatures who execute it.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 3 2004, 09:09 PM'] Oh really? St. Paul says differently..

[/quote]
What I said is not contrary to St. Paul. And I think that the quote is slightly out of Context. What I think what St. Paul is saying there is that man can not become righteous through his own good deeds/ works. Which is also to say that just because man says it is good does not mean that it is good.

When people sin and they turn away from [i]the Good[/i], who is God. They, in a manner of speaking, commit Idolatry, by replacing [i]the good[/i] with [i]a[/i] good.

Every good, is only good, as it share in the presence of God. Things that are less good are that way because they lack a certain amount of God.

I so knew you were going to say this btw ICTHUS, and I am glad that you did. So that I could further clarify. Next time I will anticipate.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Here you would have Paul contradicting himself, by your reading of the text. Certainly, whoever fears Him is acceptable, but who is it who acts uprightly and fears Him, but the one upon whom He has mercy (Romans 9)[/quote]

No, just contradicting your interpretation. Does it not say that God shows no partiality and that all who act right are acceptable to him? Again, this is the Pantheist identiy to Protestantism - it essentially denies creation. What God has created He has called good.


[quote]God is not the author of sin. He foreknew and predestined it for His glory, but it is creatures who execute it. [/quote]

He foreknew and predestined sin, therefore he authored it. You admit it yourself.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Nov 4 2004, 02:49 PM']





[/quote]
[quote]No, just contradicting your interpretation.  Does it not say that God shows no partiality and that all who act right are acceptable to him? [/quote] I addressed this before. However,

1. All who act right - all those who are in Christ, who act rightly, yes. Unbelievers are unacceptable in God's sight, as is made clear by the manifold testimony of the Word.

2. God shows no partiality - absolutely! Therefore, He has mercy on whom He will, and hardens whom He will! (Cf. Romans 9)

[quote]Again, this is the Pantheist identiy to Protestantism - it essentially denies creation.  What God has created He has called good.    [/quote] How do we deny Creation? This is just another strawman..

[quote]He foreknew and predestined sin, therefore he authored it.  You admit it yourself.[/quote] Of course I admit it. The idea is explicitly Scriptural (cf. Proverbs 16:4)

[Justified Saint]

[quote]1. All who act right - all those who are in Christ, who act rightly, yes. Unbelievers are unacceptable in God's sight, as is made clear by the manifold testimony of the Word.

2. God shows no partiality - absolutely! Therefore, He has mercy on whom He will, and hardens whom He will! (Cf. Romans 9)[/quote]

Except the Acts verses were in the context of the centurion named Cornelius who was not a believer. The cenutrion was the man acting uprightly and fearing the Lord. Your forced read of Calvinism throws the whole text of scripture into disarray.


[quote]Of course I admit it.[[/quote]

So, you just said that God is [b]not[/b] the author of sin, now you say that God is the author of sin. Make up your mind already!

Edited November 5, 2004 by Justified Saint