Pastor Ed Rice.... Another Email To Me.

[p0lar_bear]

Mr. Rice's claim that Baptists were the first Christians is not a novel idea.

There is a group called Landmark Baptists who teach this. Jack Chick also supports this claim. Most of the propaganda on the matter is based on “The Trail of Blood: the History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ” by J. M. Carroll (first published in 1931). Carroll asserts that Baptists have always existed, but under different names, since the first century. He then claims that the Montanists, Novatians, Cathars, Paulicians, Bogomils, Waldensians, and Anabaptists were nothing more than Baptists by another name.

James E. McGoldrick’s "Baptist Successionism: a Crucial Question in Baptist History" (Scarecrow Press, 150 pages) is the most thorough refutation of the Baptists’ false historical claim using firsthand historical sources—with the added bonus that the author is himself both a historian and a Baptist.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

James E. McGoldrick’s "Baptist Successionism: a Crucial Question in Baptist History" (Scarecrow Press, 150 pages) is the most thorough refutation of the Baptists’ false historical claim using firsthand historical sources—with the added bonus that the author is himself both a historian and a Baptist.

thanks for the info polar, Im going to see if I can find this book at my library and get it. I'll have to send Mr Ed my findings after I read it.

How and why would they claim they were always around but with different names? Its the same but different logic is kinda funny.

[ironmonk]

Please be sure to check out my site; http://www.BaptistBoard.net

Please be sure to look under the Baptist heading, and then look at the History. :D

When you look at what each group taught, you see that they are nothing like the baptists of today, or each other for that matter.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

Wow! Ed emailed me and it didn't seem canned this time. He "might" be learning. Or at least it appears he is reading some REAL Catholic stuff.

Here is his letter intermingled with my response:

"Thank you for a through but readable answer to my inquiry, let me see if

I understand what you said.

If I am to attain eternal life I must go to a Roman Catholic Church and

there put my faith in Jesus Christ and there do works through the Roman

Catholic Church who is the mother of all faith."

No, not necessarily. The Roman Catholic Church offers, that is, guards, what the Apostles taught. Therefore, what the Catholic Church offers is the most COMPLETE form of Christianity, and the most PERFECT teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. One may be "saved", but it would be though the graces poured out through the Catholic Church. For it was Her that brought the Faith to "the ends of the earth!" One who is in the Catholic Church, and abides by her Teachings (note: that isn't all "Catholics" obviously), has ALL the tools necessary for salvation, without which we know of no other way in which one may be "saved". Note, WE know not any other way by which one may be saved. But what we know not, God certainly knows. He established the Church (the Catholic "universal" Church, for our benefit! God didn't drop us a Bible! He established us a Church. The Church didn't "have" to write the New Testament and (400 years later) compile the Bible. The Bible was a product of the Church, the Church wasn't a product of the Bible.

"Without her water, wine

and wafers I am a lost sinner plunging towards an eternal hell, because

faith without works through a mother church is dead."

Absolutely not! God knows your heart, Ed. I don't. Without baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit we know of no other way in which one may be saved. For, it is Sacred Scripture (and before that was written, it was Apostolic Tradition) which taught that by Baptism and Repentance we are saved. It says right there in the Bible that one MUST be baptized in order to be saved. And it WAS with WATER Ed. Did you not read about the Ethiopian Eunuch who was baptized by St. Philip!

And without "wine and wafers", which I assume you mean to say the BODY and BLOOD of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor. and John 6), we have NO LIFE IN US. Therefore, without doing "this in memory of [Jesus Christ]", we know of no other way by which one may be saved. The Catholic Church is the only Church (because Christ established it) that offers Jesus' Body, just as he commanded.

You are not a lost sinner plunging towards an eternal hell, Ed. We all are sinners. I'd say you were lost, because you are not where Christ wants you (in His Church that He established especially for you). But you are certainly not "plunging towards an eternal hell." Unless of course you are spreading lies about Christ's Church on purpose. But if you are sincerely seeking the Truth, and honestly are ignorant of the Truth of the Catholic Church, then Jesus understands, and it is through his divine mercy that once you make it to heaven, you WILL inDouche be a part of the Catholic Church (you will be a member of the Body of Christ in heaven!)

And I never said "faith without works [through mother church] is dead." So please don't misquote me. I said faith without works is dead! Isn't that what Scripture says, Ed? It doesn't matter if you are in the Church or not. Works are counted toward you when you do them in faith, and with love! If believe you have faith, then your faith cannot end at the tip of your tongue. Faith moves you to do good works! Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, etc.

If you are confused about the "works" required in the Catholic Church, like Baptism, reconciliation, Holy Communion, Marriage, etc. These aren't "good works", Ed. This are Sacraments, which are for our benefit (again - notice that what Christ gave us is for our benefit.). We can choose not to have them, but then it is our loss! We miss out on the Graces that they bring. Graces, as I stated before, that without, we know of no other way in which one may be "saved". The Sacramental Graces are our life lines in our walk with Christ. We can say that by the Loving Justice of God many have made it to their eternal reward outside the Church, and outside the Sacraments. But it is by them and through them that they were saved! And in the end, when they are seated on their throne in heaven, they will be counted as one of us, Ed. You cannot escape it. If you make it to heaven, you will be Catholic! Because All the Angels and Saints Sing the Lords Praises whenever a Catholic mass is offered! The Saints are our "cloud of witnesses", and they intercede for us, Ed. If you make it to heaven, I should ask that you pray to the Lord on my behalf, just as I ask you now.

"In other words the

ONLY way that I can get my faith to be alive is by doing works, and the

ONLY avenue for one to do these works is through the mother of all

faith, the Roman Catholic Church."

No, again Ed. Good works are apart from the Catholic Church. The Church may help you to understand what the Lord wishes you to "do". But anyone can do them! If your faith doesn't move you to do good works (no matter where you are at), then it isn't really a strong faith! The Catholic Church IS the Mother of all faith! That is, she nourishes our faith, and presents to us the MOST PURE way in which we can express our faith. She is the mouthpiece of Christ (because he told her "as the Father has sent me, so I have sent you!). She is who has brought you your faith, Ed. Had it not been for the Catholic Church, founded on Peter, then the Apostles would not have preached, their successors would not know about Christ, and the Gospel would not have reached the ends of the Earth. The entire New Testament would not exist, and we would not even have the Written word of God, the Bible! Were it not BY the Catholic Church, through the Power of God, we would not know His Son who died for us! We owe our Faith IN CHRIST to His Bride, His Body, the Church!

"Roman Catholic Article 181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's

faith precedes, engenders, supports, and nourishes our faith. The Church

is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does

not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).."

Amen!

I hope that, in light of the answers I presented, you may now better understand these three sentences.

The Church is the mother of all believers, because she shows us what our Father wants. Christ established the Church for this purpose! To do as he did, because he did what his Father wanted him to do.

I'm glad that we are making progress in our mutual understanding.

I must honestly say, Ed. You are inDouche helping me to grasp my own faith better, and I am learning more and more every day about the Catholic Church! I thank you for that!

IN Christ. Jake.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

nice replies Jake

funny how I still havent got a reply from him on my two emails..

[Dave]

nice replies Jake

  funny how I still havent got a reply from him on my two emails..

Maybe you didn't get replies because the arguments you presented were so good! B)

[CatholicAndFanatical]

yea I like to think that too

but then reality hits..I probably just got filtered out.

[Norseman82]

Mr. Rice's claim that Baptists were the first Christians is not a novel idea.

There is a group called Landmark Baptists who teach this. Jack Chick also supports this claim. Most of the propaganda on the matter is based on “The Trail of Blood: the History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ” by J. M. Carroll (first published in 1931). Carroll asserts that Baptists have always existed, but under different names, since the first century.  He then claims that the Montanists, Novatians, Cathars, Paulicians, Bogomils, Waldensians, and Anabaptists were nothing more than Baptists by another name.

James E. McGoldrick’s "Baptist Successionism: a Crucial Question in Baptist History" (Scarecrow Press, 150 pages) is the most thorough refutation of the Baptists’ false historical claim using firsthand historical sources—with the added bonus that the author is himself both a historian and a Baptist.

Here is a link that someone posted on CycleForums to the J.M. Carroll work:

http://www.biblepreaching.com/trailofblood.html

One historical inaccuracy jumped out at me: that Queen Mary I of England was beheaded (Third Lecture, #14), when in fact she was not. I'm sure there are a lot more if I had the time to really dissect it thoroughly.....

[CatholicAndFanatical]

YEAH!! I finally got an email from him...not on the topic i wanted but at least he emailed a reply

It is about that correction I emailed in above there.

************************************************

Email From ED

************************************************

Thanks,

Let me clarify. We who are in Christ are in a new covenant relation under Christ. He is the only father, priest, lord, and king that we have need of. Did he tell us explicitly in this scripture that we are to call no other man father? EXPLICITLY and UNDENIABLY! If he makes reference to Father Abraham that does not hinder me from following his explicit command. Your friends yeah-but, yeah-but explanations shouldn't don't give much cause for you to ignore His explicit instructions either.

In Christ

Pastor Rice

*******************************************************

And this was my reply

*******************************************************

I wholeheartedly agree Ed, and that same explaination can be used at to why we call our Priests Father, they are not God the Father, but more like Abraham. A spiritual Father.

Take 1 Cor 4:14-15 for instance:

"14 I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.

15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers,

for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

16 Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. "

Even in Acts 21:40, 22:1 St. Paul called the Jewish Leaders "Father", and St. Stephen does the same thing in Acts 7:2.

So you see the misinterpretation on your part dont you? You see why we call Priests Fathers now right? Because they are our Fathers in Christ Jesus.

And you havnt replied to my other emails yet, did I get filtered out? Just curious.

God Bless,

Steve

*********************************************

We'll see what happens with this.

GOd Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[ironmonk]

It just keeps getting better.....

-----Original Message-----

From: Ed Rice [mailto:edrice4@linkny.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:33 AM

To: irishmax@tampabay.rr.com

Subject: Re: Back on line with katholic question

Max,

You are quite mistaken about me. I am not lieing. I am not ignoring the Bible. I am not judging, except with Christ's righteous judgements. Paul was never working out his salvation with fear and trembling, as you misquote, (you should read more carefully what is written instead of spewing out old rethoric, look what it says! Use a King James Authorized, there are still a few around that were not burned under martyrs.) inDouche Paul is the very apostle who said there can be NO WORKS in ones salvation. "Why do you ignore so much Bible." You should really read the Bible in context more, you try to make it fit your Roman preadobted creed and it don't. Another suggestion, when you jerk verses out of Matthew and try to beat people over the head with them, try keeping them in context. Enduring until the end is something that is only done in the tribulation period as described in Matt 24 and Revelation of Jesus Christ. No where is salvation ATTAINED by enduring to the end, by baptism or by a mother church. You confuse the trials of ones faith with salvation faith. Is ones salvation faith real? Is it alive or is it dead? Faith without works is dead. Is it sprung up but never to bear fruit, like a seed in the weed, like a seed in stoney ground, or like a tare which is not a wheat. All these have nothing to do with attaining saving faith, only with ensureing that yours is real. One should do that with fear and trembling. But saving faith is ATTAINED without works or endurance. But once it is attained, once one is born again, saved from their sin debt, then they KNOW they HAVE eternal life, just like Jesus said.

I AM proving your little catechism wrong on the matter of salvation. It says I must attain it via works in your mother Roman Church, my Bible says not of works lest any man should boast. It is you, Max, with your ears stopped up and your liar lables all made out in advance. Look again at Epheshion 2:8 and 9. Either your cathechism is in error or the Bible is in error. I say catechism. Look again at 1John 5. I am saved (present perfect tense) from the penalty and power of sin, I John 5 bears out my testimony of salvation explicitly. I KNOW that I am saved, I KNOW I attained it without works of righteousness, I KNOW I did not get it from that mother Roman Church and I KNOW 1 John 5 is true. Either what it says in 1 John is in error or your chatechism and it's mother is in error. I say catechism. Can you hear me, now?

What must one do to have (present perfect tense) eternal life? Faith without works! Christ without mother!

Pastor Ed Rice,

Good Smaritan Baptist Church, 54 Main St, Dresden NY 14441

PS I see this dialog makes you angry. Possibly what makes you angry is that God has already had mercy on my soul and he has done it outside the Roman Catholic Church. So too thousands of others. Because we have attained eternal life through Christ without the water, wine and wafers demanded by the apostate Roman Church who also demands to be called mother of all faith (in her catechism) you call us all liars. But our testimony is real. Our testimony is personal. I know it attacks what you have been taught from your youth. I know that I am heavy handed and sometimes clumsy in handing out the truth of this gospel of salvation. If you want that I not respond to your emails and anger you more, that's easy, don't send emails. You may just refuse to respond to my preaching. But don't refuse to respond to His. May God Bless you in your quest for eternal life, it is attainable. Jesus said so.

PS2 Article 168, 169, 171,and 181 are definitely in error. The definition of CHURCH taken in the catechism is that of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. It is not an accurate definition. With this defective definition a pope tries to be the sole dispensory of Christ's salvation. Never happen. It's a lie It's untrue. I prove it. I attained salvation through Christ without a pope or priest..

-----Original Message-----

From: Max [mailto:irishmax@tampabay.rr.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:19 PM

To: 'Ed Rice'

Subject: RE: Back on line with katholic question

Ed,

You are judging, you are not Christ, and you cannot judge for Him. You've got a lot to learn about what it means to be Christian. The only reason why the protestant churches (and yes, you are protestant, even if you don't want to admit it) attack the Catholic Church with lies is because that is the only way that your churches can be built up. The Catholic Church is right, so every other Church must try prove it wrong. The Catholic Church does not have to waste it's time going after protestant churches... because the Catholic Church is true. I think St. Augustine said it best:

City of God -Book 18 - CHAPTER 51 -- THAT THE CATHOLIC FAITH MAY BE CONFIRMED EVEN BY THE DISSENSIONS OF THE HERETICS.

We (Catholics) are not surprised by your attacks. We have always been hated by the world. "Whoever will live piously in Christ shall suffer persecution." We pray for you, and feel sorry for you. We pray that one day the Lord will use you like He did the Apostle Paul. When the scales fall from your eyes Ed, you will make a great Catholic... Just like the Apostle Paul did.

Did you actually look at the Catechism yourself, or did you just your info from some anti-Catholic book? The kjv is a poor translation. I think I'll stick with the NAB, seeing it came from the original languages. See, the kjv uses the Latin Vulgate. The kjv is in old English. The Apostles spoke Aramaic, wrote in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. So the kjv NT has been translated at least 3 times, and 4 if you count the spoken word. (Aramaic to Hebrew/Greek to Latin to Old English). Do you know where the Latin Vulgate came from? If the kjv is so great, then why was the Latin Vulgate used? But that's off the topic at hand....

You have not proven the Catechism wrong at all. I will paste it here, the paragraphs you quote with a link to the page... please read them carefully and look at the footnotes.

See, we believe Christ. Christ said that Peter was to lead the Church after Christ went to Heaven. Christ said that the Church would never be overcome by the Netherworld. Christ said that the Church would be like a city on a mountain for all to see. The only Church that is 2000 years old is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the Church built by Christ. Everything the Catholic Church teaches is backed up by the bible. The New Testament was not considered Scripture until around 400 AD, and there were over 200 books and letters considered for it. But only 27 of them made it to the New Testament... by what authority could a group of men say something was Inspired by God unless it was the Church built by Christ? Jesus did not leave a book, He left a Church. The bible did not fall out of the sky. It's been protected ever since it was written by the Church established by Christ.

What does the bible say that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is? - 1 Tim 3:15.

Also, not everything is in the bible....

2 Thess 2:15

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2 Tim 2:2

And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

Who were these faithful people? - The Catholic Church.

I suggest you start reading the footnotes, and looking up the info in that CD-ROM of the Early Church Father's writings that I sent you a while ago.

You can find the below at: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt3.htm

<place CCC 166-173, and 181 here>

The bottom line is Ed, that the most you could ever say against the Catholic Church and not be wrong is that we have a different interpretation of Scripture than you do.

May God Bless You

Your Servant in Christ,

Max

[ironmonk]

Good Samaritan Baptist Church,

Pastor Ed Rice

54 Main, Dresden, NY

14441

(315) 536-0878

I think I'm going to call him and wish him a happy all saints day on 11/1. Free weekends on the cell...

God Bless,

ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Meet Mr. Ed:

http://www.linkny.com/~edrice4/gsbc/pastor.htm

[foundsheep]

You want to see something funny:

Heres some of his credentials, Hes always talking about roman church:

3. CREDENTIALS:

Ordination Ordained as a Baptist Preacher on 8 March 1998, at Good Samaritan Baptist Church, Dresden NY, through Friendship Baptist Church, Rome NY

I just thought it was kind of Ironic.

[Norseman82]

I think I'm going to call him and wish him a happy all saints day on 11/1. Free weekends on the cell... 

I have an even better idea...call him on All Souls Day and offer to pray for departed members of his family!!!!

Anyway, what caught my eye:

Paul was never working out his salvation with fear and trembling, as you misquote, (you should read more carefully what is written instead of spewing out old rethoric, look what it says! Use a King James Authorized, there are still a few around that were not burned under martyrs.)

I guess he never read Philippians 2:12 in the KJV:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

I am an Independent, Fundamental, Premillennial, Separated, Sin-Hating, Bible-Thumping, Evangelical, Soul-Winning, Baptist-by-Conviction Preacher.

Ok, what is the "Separated" thing? The rest is just amusing...

:ph34r: