Pastor Ed Rice.... Another Email To Me.

[Jake Huether]

Ed writes again....

-----Original Message-----From: Ed Rice [mailto:edrice4@linkny.com]

Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 8:12 AM

To: irishmax@tampabay.rr.com

Subject: Back on line with katholic question

Max,

  Doubtless you and I differ greatly on what we know to be truth. I greatly weary of your tactic whereby you call everyone who disagrees with you a liar. I shall overlook your repeated name calling mannerisms and ask you to examine with me a single Bible truth and then contrast it with what your Roman church has been teaching you.

One Question, a Grand Divisor of Truth and False Religions

In all human studies of theology there is no one greater question than the one I shall address here. In all the divisions of religions, especially "Christian religions," there is not a more clear divisor which separates teachers, denominations, faiths and churches into two distinct piles or groupings of "true religion" and "false religion."

The question was asked of Jesus himself while he walked here on this earth. This question, answered wrongly, has formed many a mother church which gives birth to innumerable daughter churches which are tainted by the falsehood of mother's false teachings on this one question. All of mankind is responsible for asking and pursuing truthful answer to this one question, and we should let its answer divide Baptists and Catholics into two distinct piles and call one false and one true.

The question: "What shall man do to attain eternal life." The question looms before every religion. If the Bible is true, and you and I both believe that it is, then there is but one right answer to this question. Again, how a teacher, denomination, religion or church answers this one questions determines weather they are a true religion or a false religion.

Let me state first how a Baptist categorically, across the board answers this question. Then I shall be glad to hear as concise an answer from you as to how your catholic church taught you an answer. Whereupon you and I shall have the tools to decide which religion is the false teacher, Baptist Bible Doctrine, or Catholic Papal Doctrine.

The Baptist believe the clear Bible teaching that there is no works a sinner can do in this life to procure eternal life. It is absolutely a free gift made available to all men through Jesus Christ. Not through his church, not through any good work, not through any physical deed or bead, penance or substance, baptism or conformation. Nothing but faith in Jesus Christ and his promise of GRACE can bring about eternal life to fallen man. And when Jesus Christ gives you this eternal life he don't leave you sitting around wondering if you got it. You are literally born again as he said, born spiritually wherein you are 1) Converted via repentance and faith in Christ, 2) you are Justified before God through Christ, 3) you are Regenerated or quickened, made alive where once you were dead in trespasses and sin, 4) you are Baptized into the body of Christ, (no water here) and 5) you are Indwelt, permanently, by the Holy Spirit of God. These all happen in an instant and are all permanent and everlasting, thus the explanation of Christ "Hath, (present perfect tense) everlasting life." Now when these five events occur simultaneously in ones life, there is little doubt that some thing has happened to the individual and he or she can tell you when they got saved, when they were born again, who showed them the scriptures and how great it is to be saved and know it. We call that giving a testimony of when God saved you, mine is written on my web page, every member of a Baptist Church has this salvation testimony.

Now lets look at a few verifying scriptures. Eph 2:8 " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." You may not get a full understanding of what it means to get saved from this sentence but it is a cinch that you won't get there with any works that you do. Notice Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Clearly no works at all are in ones salvation experience.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

These passages are clear about salvation of man's soul being by grace and no work of any sort being involved. It is a free gift, and must be accepted as such as so eloquently described in the whole dissertation of Romans. Further these excerpts are completely in context, so much so that we recommend that the whole book of Ephesians and the whole book of Romans be read to more fully understand the freedom of this gift, and the reality of an event called salvation that includes the five above mentioned simultaneous events. That is Baptist Doctrine of salvation. It is straight from the Bible and concludes that man can have eternal life, and know that he has it, by being 'born again.' Further the Bible says 1John5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Any religion that would add some work to this free gift is a false religion. And any church that would offer eternal life up for sale to highest bidders is especially vile. So now I'll bid you do your homework, and tell me what does your Roman church say concerning eternal life? Ask your priest what you must do to know for certain that you have eternal life and record his answer. What is your Roman church teaching this week that one must do to attain eternal life. I know what they taught in the past 1600 years, since they started baptizing infants and broke off from the Baptist Church and joined hands with the government of Rome and they have been a false church a false religion on this regard. So, don't just call me liar here, enlighten me. How does a Roman Catholic attain eteranl life, and know that they have(present perfect tense) it? (In 2 pages or less please)

Pastor Ed Rice, Good Samaritan Baptist Church, 54 Main St. Box 99, Dresden NY 14441

-------------------

-----Original Message-----

From: Max [mailto:irishmax@tampabay.rr.com]

Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:57 PM

To: 'Ed Rice'

Subject: RE: Back on line with katholic question

Dear Ed,

When someone tells something  that is not true about the Catholic Church, then that is a lie or it could be a misunderstanding. A person who claims to have been Catholic, and tells untruths about the Catholic Church and her teachings, is a liar.

As far as what the Church teaches for salvation, the Church teaches that Christ is the reason for salvation. The Catholic Church teaches that the only reason why we get to Heaven is because Christ died for our sins. This is preached at Mass, and if you ask any Priest, or Catholic who actually knows their faith.

From the Catechism:

617

The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...chpt2art4p2.htm

The Catholic Church has taught me that everything is for Christ... The Catholic Church has showed me that everything they do is for Christ.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

Max

Knight of Columbus

LOL!

Ed wrote me the same thing.

Seems he forgot that Faith without works is dead!

Hehehe.

I will respond, I suppose. But I think we're bordering on wasting our pearls.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I know what they taught in the past 1600 years, since they started baptizing infants and broke off from the Baptist Church and joined hands with the government of Rome and they have been a false church a false religion on this regard.

Did anyone else catch this major flaw??

IronMonk, you know I love ya bro but you know he's not going to click the links you provide him...why not copy and paste the pertanent info so he can just read it. That why he has no choice but to read it.

and I didnt get an email from him he must of forgot me..maybe I should email him anyway, this time give him something to remember me by.

[ironmonk]

He replied to me again... Tonight I'll reply and post it.

I am going to stress once more that either he take my challenge or stop emailing me.

If not... the flood gates shall open... I've learned alot from Moses... I'll pray, and I'm sure that someone will send a biblical plague of emails to his mailbox to school him in what it means to be Christian... lol

I'm not going to send the emails... but I know of others that will.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ

ironmonk

Edited October 20, 2003 by ironmonk

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I know and you know that I know that you know what your knowing

:blink:

[Jake Huether]

The question: "What shall man do to attain eternal life."

"Baptist Bible Doctrine, or Catholic Papal Doctrine."

At this point, I 'd like to ask a very simple question, Ed. Where did the Baptist's get the Bible from, in order to have a "Bible Doctrine". I pose to you that before "Bible Doctrine" even existed there needed to be Papal Doctrine, otherwise Scripture might not have been infallibly picked for the Bible.

In any case. Catholic's "Papal Doctrine" should coincide with "Bible Doctrine", as it was "Papal Doctrine" which defined the Bible. Please review the Counsel at Hippo (393AD) and Carthage (397AD).

"The Baptist believe the clear Bible teaching that there is no works a sinner can do in this life to procure eternal life."

That runs quite contrary to "believe and BE BAPTIZED", as baptism is a work. When Jesus called his Apostles, they left everything to follow him! That was "work".

"Matthew 19: 16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

Note at this point Jesus doesn't turn and say, "you must do nothing, all you must do is have faith."

He replies,

"17 Why do you ask me about what is good? Jesus replied. There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.

18 Which ones? the man enquired. Jesus replied, 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,

19 honour your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbour as yourself.'

20 All these I have kept, the young man said. What do I still lack?

21 Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth."

Faith wasn't mentioned once in this passage. Though, I'm not stating that we can have eternal life without faith. What I am saying is that faith cannot exist without good works. Even Jesus knew this. It is a given.

"It is absolutely a free gift made available to all men through Jesus Christ."

No one doubts that it is a free gift, made available to all men! That is Catholic teaching too! But the question is not of the availability of this free gift. The question is how one can attain this free gift.

Gifts left under the Christmass tree are free! They even have our names written on them so that we know which ones are ours. But we cannot reap the benefits of our gift without OPENING IT!

If what you are saying, is to imply that the gift is free, available, and attained by every man with no effort on our part, then you are wrong. How then would anyone go to hell. But I assure you, Scripturally, Jesus says it is very difficult to make it to heaven and very easy to make it to hell.

Have faith in Jesus, yes. But once you have faith, what follows?

"Not through his church, not through any good work, not through any physical deed or bead, penance or substance, baptism or conformation. Nothing but faith in Jesus Christ and his promise of GRACE can bring about eternal life to fallen man."

This is very disheartening, Ed. If faith in Jesus is ALL that saves you, then why did Jesus even establish a Church. Why did he tell us to be baptized? Why would he tell his apostles, "whose sins you forgive are forgiven"? That was an empty statement if the Apostles wouldn't need to forgive anyone!

I'll answer those for you. The Church is necessary for our salvation, because without the Church we wouldn't know Christ in order to have faith in him. It is a necessary institute in order to guard the Word of God, the Teachings of Christ. Without the Church, we don't know Christ, we don't know what he wants of us, and we can NOT have faith in someone we don't know.

I've already shown you how one MUST do good works in order to have faith, and in faith one does good works. They are not separated from one another. Surely, Ed, you know that "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26).

Scripture clearly states, "repent and be baptized", and so that kills two birds with one stone. You cannot attain salvation without 1) repenting and 2) being baptized, at least. Confirmation is a Sacrament which affirms the Holy Spirit in ones life. It is Pentecost in action. The Apostles had been baptized, but their strengthening came with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, when the Lord sent them out to preach the Gospel!

And it is childish of you to toss in "bead". If you knew about the Catholic practice of praying the Rosary, then you would know that salvation isn't based on "beads". If you would like to know more about the Rosary, please ask. I am sure that you have no idea about it. In short, the Rosary is a wonderful meditation on the Life of Christ (that is correct, it is a meditation on Christ! NOT MARY specifically).

"And when Jesus Christ gives you this eternal life he don't leave you sitting around wondering if you got it."

Well Saint Paul must have been confused about it, because he was working out his salvation, "in fear and trembling". We were saved by the Blood of Christ, we are being saved by walking in the footsteps of Christ, but we will be saved when we, "hold fast to the end". (Mth: 24:13). Salvation is a life long process. We aren't "saved" until we are in heaven. For even until death we may fall. And if we fall and do not repent, we will be counted among the damned, Ed.

"You are literally born again as he said, born spiritually wherein you are 1) Converted via repentance and faith in Christ, 2) you are Justified before God through Christ, 3) you are Regenerated or quickened, made alive where once you were dead in trespasses and sin, 4) you are Baptized into the body of Christ, (no water here)"

Can you show me, Scripturally where Baptism takes place without water (and not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost - which is another Baptism "in the Spirit".). For we must be born of WATER and SPIRIT.

"and 5) you are Indwelt, permanently, by the Holy Spirit of God. These all happen in an instant and are all permanent and everlasting, thus the explanation of Christ "Hath, (present perfect tense) everlasting life."

But Ed, Christ also said, "John 6: , 53 Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

Here again we must DO something, eat and drink, in order to have life!

"Now when these five events occur simultaneously in ones life, there is little doubt that some thing has happened to the individual and he or she can tell you when they got saved, when they were born again, who showed them the scriptures and how great it is to be saved and know it. We call that giving a testimony of when God saved you, mine is written on my web page, every member of a Baptist Church has this salvation testimony."

Ed, salvation is not ours until we are in heaven. I'm sure you don't have a "lost salvation" testimony page. But it does occur. Baptists as well as Catholics fall out of faith. They run away from God. If one could not "lose" their salvation, Ed, then why was St. Paul in fear?

"Now lets look at a few verifying scriptures. Eph 2:8 " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." You may not get a full understanding of what it means to get saved from this sentence but it is a cinch that you won't get there with any works that you do."

And it is a cinch to note that "Faith without works is dead". So, we must do something! in addition to having faith.

"Notice Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Clearly no works at all are in ones salvation experience."

This is a misinterpretation on your part, Ed. Paul is saying that we cannot merely do good works and expect to get to heaven. It doesn't matter how many wounds I bandage, it doesn't matter that I've been baptized, it doesn't matter if I'm a Bible toting believer, if I do it in spite or in anger, or if I turn my back on God, then I am not saved. If I do all these in Faith, then I am saved! But if I have "faith" and do not do this, Ed, tell me, what "faith" did I really have!

"These passages are clear about salvation of man's soul being by grace and no work of any sort being involved."

Absolutely wrong, Ed. These passages make clear that if work is done, it must be done with Faith. It does NOT indicate that works are not good. It merely states that faith is needed. But as Scripture clearly states, again, "faith without works is dead". And Jesus exemplifies this, because he shows us how to do the good works in faith!

"It is a free gift, and must be accepted as such as so eloquently described in the whole dissertation of Romans. Further these excerpts are completely in context, so much so that we recommend that the whole book of Ephesians and the whole book of Romans be read to more fully understand the freedom of this gift, and the reality of an event called salvation that includes the five above mentioned simultaneous events."

I've read those books Ed, and I too understand the context, though I come to a different conclusion. And if these events are simultaneous, Ed, then why was it that the Apostles were Baptized, the expressed their faith in Christ, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit all at separate times! And why is it that the people at Samaria had received the Gospel message and had faith in Christ, yet they had not received the Spirit? Only when St. John and St. Peter placed their hands on them and prayed, did they receive the Holy Spirit! Acts 8:9. Salvation is a process, not an event.

"That is Baptist Doctrine of salvation. It is straight from the Bible and concludes that man can have eternal life, and know that he has it, by being 'born again.'"

If you can show me a biblical passage that states that one may know they are saved (that is, that they will make it to heaven no matter what future events in their life may occur), then I will accept you view.

If you can prove the Catholic position wrong, using the Catechism, then I will leave the Church.

Did St. Paul know he was saved? Why would he be afraid, then?

Further the Bible says 1John5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.Any religion that would add some work to this free gift is a false religion.

The Catholic Church has not added a single work to that which Christ made clear we must do (in faith) to attain eternal salvation. The Catholic Church does not suggest that the Works which Christ wished we do, can lead to eternal salvation, unless they are done in faith in Jesus Christ, and that they be done until the very end. We must finish the race to receive the prize.

"And any church that would offer eternal life up for sale to highest bidders is especially vile."

If you are suggesting that this is the Catholic position, and you do not accept admonishment, then I must cease conversing with you. Ed, you have a particularly venomous understanding of the Catholic Church, and you refuse to learn from REAL Catholics, the True teachings. Jesus said, "unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have NO LIFE IN YOU." The Catholic Church just so happens to be the only Church to offer the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, and so, the Catholic Church is the only Church that TRULY offers eternal life.

"So now I'll bid you do your homework, and tell me what does your Roman church say concerning eternal life? Ask your priest what you must do to know for certain that you have eternal life and record his answer. What is your Roman church teaching this week that one must do to attain eternal life. I know what they taught in the past 1600 years, since they started baptizing infants and broke off from the Baptist Church and joined hands with the government of Rome and they have been a false church a false religion on this regard. So, don't just call me liar here, enlighten me."

The Catholic Church Teaches, and any Priest can tell you, that Salvation is by Jesus Christ, and by His Cross and Resurrection. We could not be saved without Jesus Christ. However, the Church teaches what the Apostles taught. That we must work out or faith in fear and trembling. We must follow the Commandments, and we must hold fast until the very end. Satan is a lion and he is waiting to jump out and snatch you away from the flock! We cannot let go of Christ, and abandon his commandments. For his free gift of Salvation is left wrapped under the Tree, until we ourselves open it through Baptism into his Body! Unless we eat his body and drink his blood then our gift is left unopened to us. It is a free gift, inDouche. Here it is for us. He left it for us on Calvary! But we must make the effort to get the gift, Ed.

From the Catechism:

617

The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...chpt2art4p2.htm

I will not call you a liar Ed. But may the Lord have mercy on those who have lied TO you. You have no idea what the Catholic Church taught in the past 1600 years because all you do is look at the sinners actions over those years. I could show you some horrific things that Baptists have done over the years, fortunately, I do not prey on their human nature, in an attempt to destroy your church. Your church is known by it's teachings, which at best can be traced back to the 1500's (realistically much later).

READ ED! READ, please, read what the Church has written, what the Church has officially taught! Why do you look only at those that fail the teachings of Christ, Ed. Could you please look at those that kept the teachings. Here is a list of Catholic Saints, where you might see that they did inDouche follow the Teachings of the Church (i.e. the Teachings of Christ).

http://www.catholic.org/saints/stindex.php

God bless you and I look forward to your response.

[Jake Huether]

I just emailed him again, the section of the Catechism dealing with faith!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

excellent post Jake

very well put. Im curious as to why he hasnt emailed me yet...i feel so left out

He needs a history lesson for one. He said the Catholic Church broke from the Baptists :lol:

poor soul..Well I await an email from him so I can jump back in.

the last email I sent him was about learning a religion from a person in that religion, not from someone else. OH wait..I think its on page 7 or 8..but he hasnt responded to that yet.

Pax,

CatholicAndFanatical

[Dave]

I can't stay silent anymore! I'm going to write to Pastor Ed too. Wish me luck, y'all, and pray for me!

[VeraMaria]

Good Luck Dave!! You da bomb!! B) B)

[Dave]

Vera, you're making me blush!

Here's my e-mail:

Dear Ed,

I am a friend of Max, Steve, and Jake, all of whom have e-mailed you asking you to prove that the Katholic Church (I know you have a fiddler) is false. Now I extend this challenge to you as well, and if you succeed in proving the Church false, then I too will leave it.

I'm not going to rehash to you about Sister Charlotte and her testimony and why it's false, as Max, Steve, and Jake have already explained why. However, I've noticed that you keep telling us lies about what the Church teaches in that you say it teaches such-and-such when it really doesn't. And then you ignore our responses to what you say! Maybe you weren't the one who made up the lies, but it's obvious that you make no effort to determine if they're true or not and then repeat them, and so that makes you just as guilty of lying. Well, when you tell lies about and slander the Katholic Church, you lie about and slander its founder, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Do you claim to follow Jesus and do everything he says, Ed? If so, then you need to stop telling lies about Christ and His Church! Remember, thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor!

So again, the challenge stands. I want you to try and prove to me the Church is wrong, and I challenge you to find writings before the 1500s that prove this.

God bless,

Dave Conger

[VeraMaria]

B) B) B) B)

[CatholicAndFanatical]

go david, its yer Birfday

go david, its yer Birfday

go david, its yer Birfday

BOOM Shakalaka-Shakalaka-Shakalaka-Shakalaka

BOOM Shakalaka-Shakalaka-Shakalaka-Shakalaka

whicka whicka

[Dave]

:lol:

Thanks, bro! Glad to see my post made you dance!

[Jake Huether]

Nice post Dave.

May God grant you PATIENCE, cause you gunna need it. LOL.

Let us pray together right now:

Lord, you said wherever two or more are gathered in your name, you are there. And so Lord, we know that you are with us. Please send your Spirit upon Ed, and open his eyes to your beautiful, spottless Bride! Please let the scales fall Lord, and bring him home into your flock. We ask this in your Holy Name, Lord Jesus. Amen!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

*does da smurf*

*breaks down with the centepede*

grooves so smooth youd swear my last name was Timberlake

:lol: