All the Church has to offer...

[Quietfire]

Hi Pham,
I haveny posted in a while and there are so many things that I would love to tell that are going on in my life right now, but time doesnt allow me to elaborate except that I could use a few prayers for God's strength now more than ever.

I have a question or ten. Since most of our militants and faithful read Debate more, I decided to post it here.

1. Since the Bible was formed and canonized, nothing has been added or removed right? Right. Does anyone know exactly when the books were closed and no books were added to Scripture?


2. There was a debate here awhile back with a Protestant who stated that the Vatican was always changing something to accomodate it. I was under the impression that the Vatican hasnt changed anything since all of was taken care of at the last council (not sure which) but didnt actually change anything, but rather simply elaborated on it. In other words, clarified it so that we could understand it better.

3. Doctines and Dogmas-can anyone explain (in as simple as terms as possible)as to what a doctrine and dogma are, what they are for, what they do.
and how they got their names...doctrine and dogma.


4. To elaborate on number 2, when did the Church finally say "ok, I think we pretty much explained everything, lets call it a day". I mean, I realize that from time to time, things are updated to fit in with a particular time and situation, but the Church spent some 500 years on Mary alone before moving on. When did she finally finish with the rest of Scripture?

5. When and why was the last council?

These will all help me with a debate I am involved in. I promise to post again soon, there is so much going on right now.

Miss you all!!!!!!!!!

Peace

P.S. I apologize if this shows up in "Q&A about Cath." I am out of practice and posted it in the wrong topic.

Edited October 22, 2004 by Quietfire

[Benedict]

Let me see if I know any of this.

[color=red]1. Does anyone know exactly when the books were closed and no books were added to Scripture?[/color]

The issue of the canon was closed by Pope Innocent I in AD 405. He approved the 73-book canons of Hippo and Carthage that remain to today. Later councils (I think Florence and I know Trent) reaffirmed the canon.

[color=red]2. I was under the impression that the Vatican hasnt changed anything since all of was taken care of at the last council (not sure which) but didnt actually change anything, but rather simply elaborated on it. In other words, clarified it so that we could understand it better.[/color]

Not a question but yes, this is my understanding.

[color=red]3. Doctines and Dogmas-can anyone explain (in as simple as terms as possible)as to what a doctrine and dogma are, what they are for, what they do.
and how they got their names...doctrine and dogma.[/color]

I do not know about the names off the top of my head. Doctrines are part of revelation; they are required belief for Catholics. Dogma are doctrines that have been formally/theologically defined by a Council or the Pope. For example, the Trinity was doctrine prior to Nicaea and dogma afterwards.

[color=red]4. To elaborate on number 2, when did the Church finally say "ok, I think we pretty much explained everything, lets call it a day". I mean, I realize that from time to time, things are updated to fit in with a particular time and situation, but the Church spent some 500 years on Mary alone before moving on. When did she finally finish with the rest of Scripture?[/color]

God's Word is deep. The Church will not be done with Mary or Scripture or anything until the Lord comes. There is always more truth to be found, more error to be corrected.

[color=red]5. When and why was the last council? [/color]

Church-wide as opposed to local? Vatican II, 1962-1965. It was opened by Pope John XXIII "to increase the fervour and energy of Catholics, to serve the needs of Christian people."

[Katholikos]

Hi Quietfire and all of my phatmass friends (and critics ).

I've been very ill for some time and have been restricted from sitting at my computer. I'm still restricted from sitting for long periods, but I'd like to answer your questions. Here's Part 1.

Your question:
[b][color=blue]1. Since the Bible was formed and canonized, nothing has been added or removed right? Right. Does anyone know exactly when the books were closed and no books were added to Scripture? [/color][/b]

Answer:
Certain writings from among many were canonized and named "ta Biblia" -- the Bible -- at the Councils of Rome (A.D. 382), Hippo (A.D. 393), and Carthage (A.D. 397). The Council of Rome canonized as Scripture the same 73 "books" that are in the Catholic Bible today, and the other councils affirmed the same canon. Hippo and Carthage were councils held in Africa, Rome was obviously held in Rome. These were local rather than General Councils of the Church, but the Council of Carthage sent its decrees to Pope Innocent I who affirmed in A. D. 405 that these are the Scriptures of the Catholic Church. There have been no additions or subtractions from the writings first decreed to be Scripture by the Council of Rome in A.D. 382 [except those removed by Protestants].

The original Bible remained unchanged until Martin Luther removed eleven books from his German translation (1522-1534). Four (from the New Testament) were later replaced by other Lutherans, but 7 Old Testament books and parts of Esther and Daniel are still missing from Protestant Bibles.

Pope Damusus I presided over the Council of Rome. He commissioned Jerome (later St. Jerome) to translate the Scriptures approved by that Council from the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin, which by then had become the common language of the people as a result of the expansion of the Roman Empire. Jerome began work on this translation -- known as the Vulgate -- in 390, and it was published in 405. The Vulgate is identical in content to the Scriptures approved by the Council of Rome. It was written by hand, as were all documents until 1450 when the printing press was invented. The 73-volume Vulgate edition of the Bble was the first book published by Gutenberg, who was a Catholic.

The content of the Scriptures has been confirmed at other General Councils of the Church, notably Florence (1431-1445) and Trent (1545-1563).

Some Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of "adding" the so-called Apocrypha to the Scriptures at the Council of Trent, but this is not true. Trent affirmed the Scriptures from previous councils: "But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema." (Full text at [url="http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html)"]http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html)[/url] Note that Trent affirmed the Scriptures "as they are contained... in the Vulgate." And the Vulgate contains the same 73 books that appear in today's Catholic Bible, the very same books that were canonized at the Council of Rome. Here is the decree:

QUOTE
COUNCIL OF ROME, 382 A.D., Pope Damasus I presiding.

"Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun.

"The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave [Joshua] one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books [I, II Kings, I, II Samuel], Paralipomenon two books [I, II Chronicles], Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book [Song of Songs], likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus one book (Sirach).

Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book. Jeremias one book, with Ginoth, that is, with his lamentations, Ezechiel one book [Ezekiel], Daniel one book, Osee one book (Hosea), Micheas [Micah] one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book [Obadiah], Jonas one book [Jonah], Nahum one book, Habacue one book [Habakkuk], Sophonias one book [Zephaniah], Zacharias one book [Zechariah], Malachias one book [Malachi].

[Baruch isn't mentioned because it was originally included in Jeremiah.]

Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book [Tobit], Esdras two books [Ezra, Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books [1 and 2 Maccabees].

Likewise the order of the writings of the New and eternal Testament which the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book.

The Epistles of Paul in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, too the Philippians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one.

Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book.

Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle, two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealot, the Apostles one epistle.

The canon of the New Testament ends here.

END QUOTE

Part 2 will follow in answer to your other questions.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos (Jay)

Edited October 23, 2004 by Katholikos

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Oct 22 2004, 05:30 PM'] Let me see if I know any of this.

[color=red]1. Does anyone know exactly when the books were closed and no books were added to Scripture?[/color]

The issue of the canon was closed by Pope Innocent I in AD 405. He approved the 73-book canons of Hippo and Carthage that remain to today. Later councils (I think Florence and I know Trent) reaffirmed the canon.

[color=red]2. I was under the impression that the Vatican hasnt changed anything since all of was taken care of at the last council (not sure which) but didnt actually change anything, but rather simply elaborated on it. In other words, clarified it so that we could understand it better.[/color]

Not a question but yes, this is my understanding.

[color=red]3. Doctines and Dogmas-can anyone explain (in as simple as terms as possible)as to what a doctrine and dogma are, what they are for, what they do.
and how they got their names...doctrine and dogma.[/color]

I do not know about the names off the top of my head. Doctrines are part of revelation; they are required belief for Catholics. Dogma are doctrines that have been formally/theologically defined by a Council or the Pope. For example, the Trinity was doctrine prior to Nicaea and dogma afterwards.

[color=red]4. To elaborate on number 2, when did the Church finally say "ok, I think we pretty much explained everything, lets call it a day". I mean, I realize that from time to time, things are updated to fit in with a particular time and situation, but the Church spent some 500 years on Mary alone before moving on. When did she finally finish with the rest of Scripture?[/color]

God's Word is deep. The Church will not be done with Mary or Scripture or anything until the Lord comes. There is always more truth to be found, more error to be corrected.

[color=red]5. When and why was the last council? [/color]

Church-wide as opposed to local? Vatican II, 1962-1965. It was opened by Pope John XXIII "to increase the fervour and energy of Catholics, to serve the needs of Christian people." [/quote]
SCripture was closed by 405AD
All revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle St John around 110AD No further Revealtion is possible.

However we do get better at understanding it and explaining and clarifying it. It all hooks together logically.
Dogma is an absolute truth I.E. God exists. Doctrine is how we explain the dogma, all the details. Discipline is how we carry out the details that result from doctrine and dogma. For example the Mass is a discipline, its details are shaped by the doctrine we believe , but the essential elements are dogma. There has to be an epiclesis [ calling dome of the Holy Spirit] to make it a Mass, there does not have to be a sign of peace.

Vatican II was the last Church Council.
I. First Council of Nicaea, (325); repudiated Arianism, adopted the Nicene Creed. This and all sequent councils are not recognized by anti-Trinitarian churches: Arians, Unitarians, and Jehovah's Witnesses et al.
II. First Council of Constantinople, (381); revised the Nicene Creed into present form used in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches.
III. Council of Ephesus, (431); repudiated Nestorianism, proclaimed the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God (Greek, Ό Θεοτοκος). This and all sequent councils are not recognized by Assyrian Church.
IV. Council of Chalcedon, (451); repudiated the Eutychian doctrine of monophysitism, described and delineated the two natures of Christ, human and divine; adopted the Chalcedonian Creed. This and all sequent councils are not recognized by Oriental Orthodox Communion.
V. Second Council of Constantinople, (553); reaffirmed decisions and doctrines explicated by previous Councils, condemned new Arian, Nestorian, and Monophysite writings.
VI. Third Council of Constantinople, (680-681); repudiated Monothelitism, affirmed that Christ had both human and Divine wills.
Quinisext Council (= Fifth and Sixth) or Council in Trullo, (692); mostly an administrative council that affirmed some local canons to Ecumenical status and established principles of clerical discipline. It is not considered to be a full-fledged council in its own right as it did not determine matters of doctrine. The Council is accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church as a part of VI ecumenical council, but this is rejected by Roman Catholics.
VII. Second Council of Nicaea, (787); restoration of the veneration of Icons and end of the first Iconoclasm



VIII. Fourth Council of Constantinople, (869-870) Deposed patriarch Saint Photius of Constantinople. This deposition has not been not accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church. This and all subsequent councils are not recognized by Eastern Orthodox Church since Council of Constantinople in 879 - 880.
IX. First Council of the Lateran, (1123)
X. Second Council of the Lateran, (1139)
XI. Third Council of the Lateran, (1179)
XII. Fourth Council of the Lateran, (1215)
XIII. First Council of Lyons, (1245)
XIV. Second Council of Lyons, (1274)
XV. Council of Vienne, (1311-1312)
Council of Pisa, (1409) is not officially recognized because was not called by a pope.
XVI. Council of Constance, (1414-1418)
Council of Siena, (1423-1424) is not officially recognized because of heresy of conciliarism
XVII. Council of Basel, Ferrara and Florence, (1431-1445)
XVIII. Fifth Council of the Lateran, (1512-1517)
XIX. Council of Trent, (1545-1563, discontinuously)
XX. First Vatican Council, 1870; clarification of the doctrine of papal infallibility
XXI. Second Vatican Council, (1962-1965); modernization of church doctrine, end of requirement that under the Roman rite Mass be said in Latin, etc.

[Benedict]

I did better than I thought.

[Katholikos]

Part 2

Your question:
[b][color=blue]2. There was a debate here awhile back with a Protestant who stated that the Vatican was always changing something to accomodate it. I was under the impression that the Vatican hasnt changed anything since all of was taken care of at the last council (not sure which) but didnt actually change anything, but rather simply elaborated on it. In other words, clarified it so that we could understand it better.[/color][/b]

Answer:
Divine Revelation was delivered "once for all" [Jude 3] to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ through the Apostles. It is called the "Depositum Fides," the Deposit of Faith. Nothing revealed by God can be changed. The Church is the guardian of Truth. However, with the passage of time the Church has come to understand the revealed truths more deeply and has the duty of explaining them in language that people can understand in every age and applying Sacred Apostolic Teaching to new situations as they have developed over the centuries. This is called the "development of doctrine." But the Church can teach only what God has revealed. She has never changed doctrine.

Vatican II restated the teaching of the Church in modern terms. It defined no doctrines. The doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, defined by Vatican I, was not a new doctrine, but was always believed by the Church; however, it previously had not been precisely defined.

(However, Protestants are forever "finding" new doctrines in the Scriptures that have never before been heard of or thought of -- doctrines that were not taught by Christ and the Apostles -- and beginning new denominations based on these new interpretations.)

The first collective meeting of the leaders of the Catholic Church to address a common problem was the Council of Jerusalem, as recorded in Acts 15. The Church has continued to hold synods (a gathering of bishops from local areas) and General Councils (a gathering of all the bishops of the entire world) throughout the centuries. Her actions and decisions are guided by the Holy Spirit (see Acts 15:28), just as Jesus promised (John 14:16-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15; Acts 1:1-2; et al.).

Your question:
[b][color=blue]3. Doctines and Dogmas-can anyone explain (in as simple as terms as possible)as to what a doctrine and dogma are, what they are for, what they do, and how they got their names...doctrine and dogma.[/color][/b]

Answer:
[b]Doctrine[/b] (derived from the Latin word "doctrina" meaning "teaching"): Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful.

[b]Dogma [/b](derived from Latin and Greek): Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of Divine Revelation.

Your question:
[b][color=blue]4. To elaborate on number 2, when did the Church finally say "ok, I think we pretty much explained everything, lets call it a day". I mean, I realize that from time to time, things are updated to fit in with a particular time and situation, but the Church spent some 500 years on Mary alone before moving on. When did she finally finish with the rest of Scripture?[/color][/b]

Answer:
Christ founded the Catholic Church as His representative on earth for the salvation of the world. Her work will not be finished until the end of time.

Your question:
[b][color=blue]5. When and why was the last council?[/color][/b]

Answer:
What Benedict said.

Anything else? (If you wish to, you may write to me privately at Katholikos1@aol.com)

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos (Jay)

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Oct 23 2004, 12:06 PM'] I did better than I thought. [/quote]
You did fine! It's just that some of us use more words than others . . .

[Quietfire]

I've missed you Likos. Hope you are feeling better.

Peace.

[Benedict]

[quote]You did fine! It's just that some of us use more words than others . . . [/quote]
I remember back when I had the time to use more words.