i7nvd Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Hey, folks. I was debating with a friend about the Bible. He's non-denominational. He asked me how someone got to Heaven, and then asked if Jews and Hindus could get into Heaven. I'd already researched this, and found that yes, they can (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). But, of course, the scripture passage that holds the title of his argument says otherwise. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. [b]No one[/b] comes to the Father, except through me." Can someone tell me how I might be able to argue this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#846"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#846[/url] If after reading this you still need some clarification let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 well, you are both correct. you are correct in stating that Jews and Hinbus can get to heaven. he is correct in stating that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. this is b/c, if a Hindu gets to heaven, it is b/c of Jesus, even tho that Hindu may not have explicit knowledge of Him. he gets to heaven b/c of the truths that he shares w/ the Catholic Church--truths that come from Jesus Christ himself--and b/c of the natural law placed on the hearts of ALL men. of course, this also assumes that the Hindu in question does not explicitly and willfully reject Jesus Christ and his Church after learning about these things for what they [i][b]truly [/b][/i]are. these articles will help as well: --[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302fea3.asp"]Salvation for Non-Christians Explained[/url] --[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp"]Can Non-Christians Be Saved?[/url] --[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1203"]Ignorance: Invincible and Vincible[/url] --[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm"]Ignorance[/url] also see the "Salvation Outside the Church" section of the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728"][b]Salvation entry[/b][/url] pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 I would say that in the strict sense Jews and Hindus cannot get to heaven. Why? Because if they get to heaven it is because they have undergone Baptism in one of its forms, and are therefore no longer Jews or Hindus when they enter the Pearly Gates. They would, in essense, be Catholic. Now, how does this work? Read Augustine's City of God. He has a section on it that seems to work. Aquinas deals with it some. I'll try to find these sources along with the quotes from the Fathers that I m getting for someone already (who will no doubt post on this thread against this notion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 PSPX.............i am monumentally greatful that you agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Oct 22 2004, 03:19 PM'] PSPX.............i am monumentally greatful that you agree [/quote] Yeah...I was kinda surprised... *needs to work more on his stereotype hubris* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 popestpiusx, Quotage: [url="http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude...tfeeneyism.html[/url] It is the old version... I hope to have it totally revamped around Christmas-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 To sum it up, if jews, hindus, etc get to heaven it is because of Jesus. For a good example of this I recomend C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 wow...to think that every soul in Purgatory has joined [b]the Church[/b] Suffering. hmm thats not meant to be a pun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 22 2004, 04:40 PM'] Yeah...I was kinda surprised... *needs to work more on his stereotype hubris* [/quote] [quote]PSPX.............i am monumentally greatful that you agree[/quote] Why the surprise? I have never defended the opposing position. I just have a more strict definition of baptism of desire than most. But the fact that it exists has been defended by some of the greatest minds in Church history. Who am I to disagree? But then again, I'm not to be trusted. I'm phishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 23 2004, 10:42 AM'] To sum it up, if jews, hindus, etc get to heaven it is because of Jesus. For a good example of this I recomend C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" [/quote] Ultimately, yes, it is because of Jesus. But this is kind of a copout. We must be honest an say that if they are saved it is because they were united to the Church by some form of baptism. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. The Church is the vessel of salvation. Anyone who is saved is saved due to the salvific nature of the Church. But this is where it gets tricky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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