Icons and Latria Dulia quote

[goldenchild17]

I need the quote that this guy is talking about.

[quote](don't worry, I'm not trying to bash Catholic use of icons during worship, not unless they were to give latria to the icons, in which case most Catholics would beat them over the head too)

I know these two terms very well. So no term definition is necessary here. I'm simply asking for cited quotes of whoever argued that there is a difference between latria and dulia in that while worshipping, dulia is being given to the statue while you're worshipping the one it represents.

I am not sure exactly where to find such notes. If memory serves correctly, it would probably be somethings John of Damascus said in the Seventh Ecumenical council. As he was also the one who explained why making an image of Jesus did not break Torah law (ten comandments). If not him, then I know it was in that Council at least as the main topic was Iconoclasm brought in by the Ottamans.[/quote]

[phatcatholic]

these articles may help:

--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ204.HTM"]Is Mary Worshipped by Catholics?: The [i]Latria[/i]/[i]Dulia[/i] Distinction[/url]
--[url="http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/05188b.htm"][i]Dulia [/i]("Honor")[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a97.htm"][i]Latria[/i], [i]Dulia[/i], and Veneration of the Saints[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

Thanks, but where is the specific quote asked for above? Something, maybe from John of Damascus, on while in worship, worship goes to God while we do not worship the image of God???

[goldenchild17]

More specifically, where does the veneration of icons come from?

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]But in the East, too, there were people who shared this more sober Western view. Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his "Regula pastoralis" into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: [b]"We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels; we do not adore (latreuomen) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word 'adore' he puts 'only', but not before the word 'worship', because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)"[/b] (Schwarzlose, op. cit., 24).[/quote]

[url="http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:bho5Xdv_8IgJ:www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm+council+of+Nicaea+icon+worship+dulia+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8"]http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:bho5X...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8[/url]

You need to read the entire article from the Catholic Encyclopedia it gives the history.

[b]Nicea II[/b]

[quote]We define (orizomen) with all certainty and care that both the figure of the sacred and lifegiving Cross, as also the venerable and holy images, whether made in colours or mosaic or other materials, are to be placed suitably in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, on walls and pictures, in houses and by roads; that is to say, the images of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our immaculate Lady the holy Mother of God, of the honourable angels and all saints and holy men. For as often as they are seen in their pictorial representations, people who look at them are ardently lifted up to the memory and love of the originals and induced to give them respect and [b]worshipful honour (aspasmon kai timetiken proskynesin) but not real adoration (alethinen latreian) which according to our faith is due only to the Divine Nature.[/b] So that offerings of incense and lights are to be given to these as to the figure of the sacred and lifegiving Cross, to the holy Gospel-books and other sacred objects [b]in order to do them honour, as was the pious custom of ancient times. For honour paid to an image passes on to its prototype; he who worships (ho proskynon) an image worships the reality of him who is painted in it"[/b] (Mansi, XIII, pp. 378-9; Harduin, IV, pp. 453-6).[/quote]
[url="http://www.franciscan-archive.org/apologetica/inerrant.html"]http://www.franciscan-archive.org/apologetica/inerrant.html[/url]

[b]St. Basil the Great A.D. 329-379[/b]

[quote][b]the honour paid to the image passes on to the prototype[/b]. Now what in the one case the image is by reason of imitation, that in the other case the Son is by nature; and as in works of art the likeness is dependent on the form, so in the case or the divine and uncompounded nature the union consists in the communion of the Godhead. (On the Holy Spirit 18:45) [/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3201000.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3201000.htm[/url]

You can also look at this

[url="http://www.balamand.edu.lb/theology/Joicons.htm"]http://www.balamand.edu.lb/theology/Joicons.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num55.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num55.htm[/url]

Edited October 22, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[goldenchild17]

I think that's exactly what I need. That thing from St. John Damascene is good.

[goldenchild17]

Here's another twist that I don't know much about.

The stuff ya'll gave me worked great. But here's another question he posed to me.

"hmm, yes, this helps a lot! Tell me, what does the Catholic church think towards the churches in Mexico which use latria towards Mary?"

and this was my initial response...

"There are a lot of people, especially in cultures that have been converted from religions that were largely polytheistic(like the Aztecs, I think). Unfortunately, it is really hard to clean out cultural beliefs completely. Basically, there are people, I'd venture to say even a good number of people, that don't know that this is wrong. They call themselves Catholic, but do not follow Catholic teaching by worshipping images and going to far with the most holy Our Lady of Guadalupe. These people are not following Catholic teaching. The Church does not endorse this, but it happens. It is a scandal that is unfortunate. Much like the priestly scandals, which aren't endorsed by the Church either. The people that worship Mary and images in Mexico, or in any other place for that matter, are in the wrong and are not following Church teaching. It's as simple as that. It is not a fault of the Church, but of individuals within."

I don't know if that was a good response or not but anyways...

He replied with...

"I agree that it isn't the Church's fault. But why don't they break with the churches that are doing it? Is their financial support really that much? I can think of now other reason, as their allowing it to go on within the Catholic church's system is unbiblical as I'm sure many fervent Catholics would agree."


He said some things like the Church in Mexico is the number one source of income for the Vatican and stuff.

Is all this true? That the Church in Mexico has fallen into this trap, or is it just individuals? And what about the money and such?

[phatcatholic]

goldenchild,

colette would probably have more to say on this, but here's what i think. i would guess that this supposed mass ignorance of the proper role of Mary is more of a stereotype then anything. i think protestants look at the great devotion that Mexicans have for Our Lady of Guadalupe and they mistake this for worship.

also, the idea that the Mexican church is the #1 source of income for the Church is news to me. last time i checked, the majority of mexicans weren't all that wealthy. there is extensive missionary work done in Mexico just to make sure they have church buildings to go to. even though 95% of Mexico is catholic, i would be surprised if their combined monetary offering was more substantial then what the church in the US provides.

in reality, either side--his position or mine--can't really be proven, so the whole topic adds little to the debate. remember to stick to what can be proven, and toss all assumptions and conjecture aside.

as for why the Church doesn't break away from the Mexican church, the Catholic Church is not in the habit of breaking away. that's what protestants do the Church would much rather evanglize those christians who misunderstand Catholic doctrine (assuming this is actually the case w/ the Mexican church) and bring them back into the fold. the Church is all about bringing people to the truth, not turning them away. even when the Church excommunicates someone, the sole intention of such an action is to show a person the grave nature of their dissent and to compel then to return to the Church.

i haven't looked this over to see if it is relevant, but [url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/cip.htm"][b]here[/b][/url] is a compilation of statistics on the church in the US which may be of some help.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

Okay, so is there a known scandal going on down there or not? I mean is this something that Protestants are possibly blowing out of proportion or is there something behind it. The guy I'm talking to said that he has been to Mexico and visited two of the churches where he sees stuff going on. I asked him just what he saw so we can determine if this is actually idolatry or just deep devotion.

[phatcatholic]

i'm not aware of a scandal. so, i would guess this is being blown out of proportion. many protestants are scandalized by marian devotion anyway. so, the intense devotion that mexicans have for Our Lady could easily result in such a stereotype. as for what he saw at the churches he visited, you have to remember that just b/c a person is kneeling in front of a statue of mary, that does not mean that he is worshipping Mary or the statue. all the statues and paintings in the world would not prove that worshipping is being done. it is the content and intention of the prayer that proves this.

[goldenchild17]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. I'm trying to get some specifics out of him, to know just exactly what he saw that he thought was worship.

[goldenchild17]

Someone asked me last night why the Vatican is the richest country per capita in the world!!! This isn't true is it? And where can I find something that shows the per capita income of a country? I'm sure it's online somewhere.

[phatcatholic]

go [url="http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldincomepercapita.htm"][b]here[/b][/url]. Norway is #1. the Vatican is not even listed

Edited October 24, 2004 by phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

Okay yeah. That's what I thought, I just didn't have anything to back it up with because it was in a chat and I couldn't find a link.