Wine Or Grape Juice?

[ironmonk]

ss,

I'm going to try to put this in an anology that you might understand. Now, an anology is where we use symbolism to describe a situation. And... symbolism is where we are using one thing to describe a relationship in place of the actual object.

Understand thus far? If not, please see www.Dictionary.com

We have not contradicted each other at all... here is my analogy...

All of us (Catholics) live in the same house (Catholic Church).

Say, that we where in the living room of that house. Some of us are facing the north wall, some are facing the south wall, some the east wall, and some even the west wall...

If you asked each of us to decribe the room, then we will all start at different places... Some with the North Wall... South wall... East wall... or West Wall.... Because we have started decribing the room with different walls, does not mean that we are contradicting each other.

Please, show us which quotes that are contradicting.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

Trooper,

It is sad that is all you can say....

Stop wasting our time. Are you swine or sheep? Sheep of God listen and look for truth, they pray on it, they pay attention to the facts. Swine are ignorant and ingore the facts and come here only to argue.

Your reply is full of folly, and lacks any knowledge.

I've been reading the bible over and over for 24 years.

Here's a little ditty for you.... rebut with logical scripture - or shut up.

I believe all of what Jesus said....

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus is speaking directly to Peter here, this english version has been translated 3 times... Originally in Aramaic (Kephas = rock)... Then the Greek were we get the different endings of 'Petros', one is masculine and one is feminine... following proper grammer they could not give Peter the feminine and that is why there is a differnence in the Greek to English... An Aramaic to English would read "...you are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my church..."

Peter's name in Aramaic was Kepha/Cephas as shown in John's Gospel and in Paul's letter to the Cornithians. Aramic is what was spoken and it means Rock.

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John 1:42

Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; 30 you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

The argument that Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock is wrong.

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John 21:15

8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

This also shows the same as with St. Matt 16:18 that Peter was the leader of the Apostles after Jesus went to Heaven. Peter was the first Pope.

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St. Matt 28:18

11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

We believe that when Jesus said this to the Apostles, that the Church will always be around and in every Nation from the first Christians on... and that Jesus will always guide the Church... If Jesus is guiding the Church, then the official teaching of the Church cannot be wrong.

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Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

We believe that if someone rejects the Church after seeing the Truth, through their own fault, that they are denying Jesus. Now, say for example someone is baptist and honestly believes (through no fault of their own) that the baptist church is the Church that Jesus started, then they are Catholic by desire... They have the desire to know the truth and if they are taught that the lie is the truth, then it's not their fault.

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Matt 5:13

11 12 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14

You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

15

Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

We believe that the True Church that Jesus built will be visable for all to see, that it has been visible since the time of the Apostles... The Catholic Church is the only Church that is 2000 years old... The Catholic Church is the "City set on a Mountain that cannot be hidden." All through history, the Catholic Church has been there, all other Christian churches are less than 400 years old and they do not have a unity of faith.

Ephesians 4:1

1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,

2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

4 2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

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What does the Bible say the Pillar and Truth is??? - The Church...

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

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What does the Church that Christ built look like???? .....

It has Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They are often called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

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It is hierarchical.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. God gives His children authority.

Eph. 4:11 - Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops (episcopoi) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests (presbuteroi) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons (diakonoi). His Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons.

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It has the Body and Blood of Christ - The Real Presence

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." .....

......

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

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The Church (Clergy - disciples) can forgive sins....

St John 20:21

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

St James 5:14

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"

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It will never be overcome by the Netherworld, it will be like a city on a mountain for all time, it will be Guided by Christ; it will even speak for Christ - It will have ONE Faith....

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock(Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

John 21:15

8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

St. Matt 28:18

11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

Matt 5:13

11 12 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14

You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

15

Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

Ephesians 4:1

1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,

2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

4 2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

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Only One Church, One Faith... has been around almost 2000 years and can fit what the Church in the Bible "looks" like... it can be seen today...

The Catholic Church.... built by Christ, on Peter and the Apostles.

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St John 20:21

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The Holy Spirit guides me to see the above verse to mean that "As the Father has sent Jesus, Jesus sends His Disciples"... Why did the Father send Jesus?.... To forgive us our sins. I also see that in verse 23, pretty clearly.

St James 5:14

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Presbyters....aka...Priests....

Acts 19:18

And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

1 Tim 6:12

Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:8

If we say, "We are without sin," we deceive ourselves, 3and the truth is not in us.

9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"

--------------------------

And a couple verse hand picked for you...

Proverbs 15:2

The tongue of the wise pours out knowledge, but the mouth of geniuses spurts forth folly.

Proverbs 26:4

Answer not the fool according to his folly, lest you too become like him.

5 Answer the fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes.

St. Matt 7:6

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.

[6] Dogs and swine were Jewish terms of contempt for Gentiles. This saying may originally have derived from a Jewish Christian community opposed to preaching the gospel (what is holy, pearls) to Gentiles. In the light of Matthew 28:19 that can hardly be Matthew's meaning. He may have taken the saying as applying to a Christian dealing with an obstinately impenitent fellow Christian (Matthew 18:17).

folly

n 1: the trait of acting stupidly or rashly

Thanks for Playing,

ironmonk

logical scripture?

why coz your the master of that?, I have deiceded to not take any of your comments seriously or listen to anything YOU have to say because your posts have tried to tell me who I am in Christ and therefore make you an unrespectable person. There is a difference between knowing the Scripture and partaking of it in the Eucharist.

The Word is Christ, and you partake of Christ in the Holy Communion realise that the Bible is also something you have to partake as Communion. Or you can use your canabilistic acts as much as you like and realise that the life you are living has no substance as towards fulfilling God's plan in your life.

[ironmonk]

why coz your the master of that?,

No, the Church built by Christ is.

I have deiceded to not take any of your comments seriously or listen to anything YOU have to say

It must be frustrating to know that a Catholic knows the bible better than you do. I understand why your pride would keep you from replying with something of intelligence... because you can't.

because your posts have tried to tell me who I am in Christ

LOL... I have not told you who you are....LOL Is english a second language for you?

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[foundsheep]

Or you can use your canabilistic acts as much as you like and realise that the life you are living has no substance as towards fulfilling God's plan in your life.

Well you can do like some of the disciples did because they didnt want to partake in his flesh and Leave.

Edited October 6, 2003 by foundsheep

[foundsheep]

skip

Edited October 6, 2003 by foundsheep

[foundsheep]

Or you can use your canabilistic acts as much as you like and realise that the life you are living has no substance as towards fulfilling God's plan in your life.

Well you can do like some of the disciples did because they didnt want to partake in his flesh and Leave.

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

No, the Church built by Christ is.

right ok go find that church and spot the differences between yours and theirs. Would take you a very long time!

It must be frustrating to know that a Catholic knows the bible better than you do. I understand why your pride would keep you from replying with something of intelligence... because you can't.

nope its actually beautiful another Christian knows the bible better than I, pity that if you are that person you haven't used your intellect much have you? my prayer is that application becomes a greater force than knowledge.

LOL... I have not told you who you are....LOL Is english a second language for you?

You are trying to tell me who I am and yes English is a 2nd language for me... LOL... LOL... LOL... LOL...

great use of english here mate, what the?

Edited October 6, 2003 by Trooper4DaHolyG

[MC Just]

Luther had poo fights with the devil and had mental problems, he creates his own religion and this is what we get from it. A bunch of ignoramuses who claim to know the truth but really know nothing but their own likings and opinions.

[MC Just]

So trooper are you saying that no body knows what the true church is? it's simple it was created by Jesus (Matthew 16:18) It's indestructible and will exist in all generations. Only one Church fits that Description. All the "so called Bible Churches" were made by men who did not know the truth because they had abandoned it.

Isaiah 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where geniuses will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. Since the Catholic Church was the only Church which existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter's authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error.

[MC Just]

So if you truly believe what the bible says then you would know that Jesus' Church is indestructible and has inDouche existed since 33 A.D., Church History and the Bible describe the Catholic Church. Way before the Pentecostals and non-denoms, the lutherans and Anglicans, the baptists, the shakers the bakers, the belly achers. The methodist, the morons, and the False Jehovah' witnesses.

THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL, THAT MEANS ALL WHO COME AGAINST THE ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH WILL FALL ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

THERE WILL NEVER BE PEACE IN THE WORLD AND THERE WILL NEVER BE UNITED CHRISTIANITY UNTIL THE WORLD REALIZES THAT GOD MADE ONE CHURCH AND WHAT THAT ONE CHURCH TEACHES IS VERY MUCH NEEDED. BECAUSE IT WAS FOUNDED BY GOD. NO FALSE CHURCH OR RELGION CAN BRING GOD'S LOVES LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Edited October 6, 2003 by Mc-Just†

[CatholicAndFanatical]

SUPERNATURAL, HOLY SPIRIT TACTICAL, CATHOLIC-AND-FANATICAL, THE ACTUAL THE FACTUAL

:D

CatholicAndFanatical

[MC Just]

SUPERNATURAL, HOLY SPIRIT TACTICAL, CATHOLIC-AND-FANATICAL, THE ACTUAL THE FACTUAL

:D

 

CatholicAndFanatical

Oh yeah!

[Donna]

Trooper, I think I missed what your question was?