Wine Or Grape Juice?

[mulls]

i could really care less whether if was alcoholic or not, but here's what i think anyway, considering the miracle of water into wine...

if it's fermented, it's alcoholic. and the process of fermentation takes time. but Jesus transformed the water into wine instantly. so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the wine was non-alcoholic, or at least minimally alcoholic. either way, i don't think Jesus would create a drink that people would get very easily drunk off of.

and either way, i still don't care. i hate arguing about this stuff.

[ironmonk]

Here's a little ditty for you all.

Non-alcoholic juice did not exist until 1869 AD and was invented by Welch because of prohibition. Welch was the first to apply the pasteurization process to juice.

Grapes start the fermentation process on the vine.

Also, in Mark 2:22 we see that new wine, recently pressed and strongly fermenting, cannot be stored in secondhand wineskins because the strong yeast and microbial activity of an earlier quantity of new wine will have stretched and weakened the old leather. This does not happen with non-alchoholic grape juice.

Application of the facts:

Any church that preaches that drinking alcohol is a sin or that Jesus drank non-alcoholic grape juice instead of wine cannot be the holder of the full truth.

jas,

It makes a very big difference... if someone is so off about the little things (i.e. if it was wine or juice) how can they possibly know the big things (i.e. proper interpretation, etc).

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Anna]

Our Lord, Jesus Christ, definitely used wine, not juice.

The reason: there was no refrigeration in those days.

The crushed grapes began to ferment on day 1!

When Jesus changed the water into wine, the head waiter remarked to the wedding's host, "Most people serve their best wine first, then after the guests have had a few (paraphrasing) they switch to a lesser (implying lower alcohol content) wine. You have saved the best wine till last." In other words, the water which Jesus turned into wine was a high-quality wine!

Note the Bible does say wine, not juice.

And note, as CMom said above that it is Jewish tradition to use wine at the celebration of the Pasch.

Guess what? Jesus was Jewish.

Someone is misinterpretting Holy Scripture to suit his own understanding when he claims that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, couldn't possibly have sipped wine, because that is a sin. Nonsense!

And yes, Skuba Steve, the apostles used the same type of unleavened bread and fermented wine that Jesus had used. They passed this Sacred Tradition on to the next generation of priests, and so on down the centuries.

Celebrating the Lord's Supper is done with great care and reverence in the Catholic Church, since Jesus Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Most Blessed Sacrament are the source, summit, and center of our spiritual life.

You may not believe It yourself, but at least show a little respect for those of us who do.

You have no ability whatsoever to confect pizza and coke into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, so your comparison is null. Only a duly ordained priest has the gift, by virtue of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, to call upon the Holy Spirit to transubstantiate ordinary unleavened bread and fermented grape wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus. If the proper form (prayers) or matter (bread and wine) are not used, the Sacrament is not valid. We do not get to "reinvent the wheel" or substitute something a little more pleasing to our palates. We are to imitate Christ's Last Supper. That is what we have done for over 2,000 years. It is, as I said before, a Sacred Tradition, and the summit of our Faith.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited October 2, 2003 by Anna

[[jas]]

I still say, what difference does it make either way?

Yes, it would have been wine that Jesus used.

But are you saying that He's not powerful enough to change grape juice into His blood if He wants to (seeing as that's what He apparantly does for wine?)

And with regard to my pizza shapes (for you non-australians, "pizza flavoured" biscuits) and coke, it was all in what it represented, that's what we had with us at the time and after me and some of my mates had just had an amesome prayer time, we decided to have communion. What you're saying is that it's not valid, even though we remembered Christ's sacrifice with that? Why not?

[Anna]

Not only was it invalid, but if you understood the magnitude of the Last Supper and Christ's command to perpetuate the Sacrifice of His Body and Blood, you would understand that your little party was sacreligious.

However, you were not culpable, as you didn't understand. So you are guilty of no sin.

If you continue to do so with your friends, now that you've been told the diff, then you are truly and willfully committing an abomination.

So, please, don't try to re-invent the Lord's Supper with whatever munchies you happen to have handy.

Pax Christi. <><

[[jas]]

you would understand that your little party was sacreligious.

sac·ri·le·gious (skr-ljs, -ljs)

adj.

1. Grossly irreverent toward what is or is held to be sacred.

Why is what we did "grossly irreverent"? We were revering God through the means we had available.

[littleflower+JMJ]

because jas not just anyone can have "communion" take place whenever, with whatever, they want.

theres soo much to communion more that you are missing out on.

im sure someone can explain better than i ever could but i just wanted to make that point across.

God bLess!

+JMJ

[Anna]

sorry for my typo, jas, but re-read my post.

I think I explained fairly well why non-ordained laymen sharing pizza and coke have not validly confected the Most Holy Eucharist, and are therefore, making a mockery of the Last Supper.

Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me." Not, "Anyone can use whatever they have handy."

Besides, you miss a very important aspect of the Last Supper.

Just prior to instituting the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders, thus establishing an ordained priesthood. While washing their feet and commanding them to begin serving his followers, he was giving them a special charism to carry on a priestly function. He then instructed them as to how to celebrate the Eucharist.

What you did, you did with a sincere heart.

However, you've now been informed as to why it is wrong to think that you can mock the Sacred Gift He left to us. This is also why Catholics may not receive communion in other churches: it would be like placing this symbolic action on a par with the Real Presence.

God Bless. <><

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

I wonder what you will all do if unleavened bread and wine became non-existent. Will the pope make up something new?

[Anna]

We have Christ's promise that the gates of hell won't prevail against His Church, so we really don't worry about running out of grape wine and unleavened bread. :)

[[jas]]

Um, please explain the link between the gates of hell not prevailing against the church, and agriculture and viticulture?

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

in other words Jas, if God will not let the gates of Hell prevail againt his Church. He will make sure that the unleavened bread and wine, which are more than just a represenatation of the victory on calvary they are the Church.

I wonder who can draw the line between the Church and God Almighty.

[skuba steve]

And the bread for Communion is specially made with just flour and water -- nothing else. If a hair fell into the dough, however, it wouldn't be enough to invalidate the bread.

and the water comes from exactly the same souce???

The water contains so chemicals or other additives or different minerals?

What if a bit of pizza topping fell into the dough??? Maybe an olive and some pepperoni.

[JP2Iloveyou]

and the water comes from exactly the same souce???

The water contains so chemicals or other additives or different minerals?

What if a bit of pizza topping fell into the dough??? Maybe an olive and some pepperoni.

I can tell you're just being arrogant, but I'll respond to what you asked as though you weren't.

First of all, the water does not have to come from EXACTLY the same source as the water Christ used. Water is water. Two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom combine to make one water molecule. Nothing more, nothing less. Besides, all the water is used for is to purify the wine. The priest pours a couple of drops of water into the wine to be consecrated and says the prayer, "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the Divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity."

Now, for the pizza topping. The utmost care is taken to ensure that the bread to be used at Mass is correctly made. Many times Carmelite sisters do this. They are not eating pizza while making this bread. I would imagine that they are probably praying while baking the bread.

Next, I know this wasn't in your post, but I'm going to address some common questions I've heard from Protestants on the Eucharist.

1) What happens to the Consecrated Hosts that are not consumed?

A1) They are put in a ciborium and put in a tabernacle which is then locked to prevent desecration. If the Mass is taking place outdoors, the priest will often consume the hosts that remain after Communion.

2) How do you know if there is a host in the tabernacle? After all, if you are in the presence of God, shouldn't you show Him some reverence?

A1) Yes, we should and do show God reverence by genuflecting every time we pass infront of a tabernacle with the most Blessed Sacrament reserved in it. We know that Jesus is in the tabernacle because a candle, usually either red or white, is lit next to the tabernacle. If the candle is lit, then Christ is present. Someone in the parish, often times a priest, will make certain that as soon as this candle burns out, a new one is ready to take its place so that the faithful will always know that Christ is present.

3) What if a host gets lost and is sitting in an attic or a basement somewhere?

A3) This should never happen because the priest should take maximum care to be certain that all hosts he consecrated have either been consumed or are reserved back in the tabernacle.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I wonder who can draw the line between the Church and God Almighty.

I dont see a line between the Church and God, since the Church is the Bride of Christ and was Create and IS protected by God, there are no lines that need to be drawn.

As far as pizza topping..ugh, why would you belittle our Lord that way in to a piece of pizza?

St. Paul tells us to take great care when recieving the Eucharist, he says we MUST make an examination of conscience before recieving the Body of Christ, without doing so we would be taking judgement upon ourselves...St. Paul took this seriously, he knew what the Eucharist was.

If you was before St. Peter and you was to tell him that you chose to use a pizza to be Christs Body he would of probably cast you to death right there...why would I say that? Because in Acts two people withheld personal belongings from the Church, Peter excommunicated them by saying they Lied to the Holy Spirit and they both died at his command...how little it tithing compared to the Eucharist, if death is the cause of not tithing right, how much more punishment would there be for commiting a sacrilidgous act towards the Eucharist?

Quote from said Scripture:

      Acts Chapter 4 Verse 32-37

    32

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.

33

With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all.

34

There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,

35

and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.

36

Thus Joseph, also named by the apostles Barnabas (which is translated "son of encouragement"), a Levite, a Cypriot by birth,

37

sold a piece of property that he owned, then brought the money and put it at the feet of the apostles.

Chapter 5

1

1 A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property.

2

He retained for himself, with his wife's knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles.

3

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?

4

While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God."

5

When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.

6

The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.

7

After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened.

8

Peter said to her, "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered, "Yes, for that amount."

9

Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

10

At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11

And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

12

CatholicAndFanatical