Death Penalty

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='mulls' date='Oct 19 2004, 11:17 PM']

i'm not against the death penalty, but if one soul makes it to heaven because they were spared of it, than it's worth not having it. [/quote]
This goes both ways, does it not? If one soul was brought to repentence from staring death in the face, is it not worth having?

Edited October 20, 2004 by popestpiusx

[mulls]

true, it can work both ways. but death will stare the prisoner in the face as well one day. so, why not give him the opportunity to encounter Christ through a ministry, a letter, a guard another inmate, a bible, etc.....and then you have the death thing to fall back on.

also, what do you make of the verses i provided in this case?

[cmotherofpirl]

No it is not.
2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

[XIX]

Don't forget about the souls of the victims' families. What does it tell them when society tells them it is perfectly all right to kill another human being as punishment?

And I still don't have much reason to believe that these death row conversions to Catholicism are very sincere. I hope to God that they are, for their sakes, but I'm [i]guessing[/i] that God is on their lips only. I'd imagine that Jesus is really very far from their hearts.

[cmotherofpirl]

"And I still don't have much reason to believe that these death row conversions to Catholicism are very sincere. I hope to God that they are, for their sakes, but I'm guessing that God is on their lips only. I'd imagine that Jesus is really very far from their hearts"

Your assuming these death bed conversions on not sincere on what basis?
You would then have to assume anyone dying of cancer who converts in their last weeks or days would be insincere as well. Same premise.

Cardinal George said knowing the day you are going to die is a great incentive to straighten out your life. Knowing you are dying is a great attention getter.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='mulls' date='Oct 20 2004, 12:37 AM']

also, what do you make of the verses i provided in this case? [/quote]
They are, of course, true. However, they hardly preclude recourse to capital punishment. You are trying to derive something out of them that is not there. Yes, God is patient. He accepts 11th hour conversions. He doen't give up on a soul until it has given up itself. This is not being disputed. To draw from this that the death penalty should not be used creates a slippery slope of an argument. We could hardly ever justify killing another human based soley upon the fact that they may some day convert. But this is all a distraction from the real issue: the purpose of punishment and its necessity for the maintenance of social order.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='XIX' date='Oct 20 2004, 07:57 AM'] And I still don't have much reason to believe that these death row conversions to Catholicism are very sincere. I hope to God that they are, for their sakes, but I'm [i]guessing[/i] that God is on their lips only. I'd imagine that Jesus is really very far from their hearts. [/quote]
Your argument is such that it seems that you think these conversions almost forced, in a sense. They are freely entered into. There is no one pressuring them with death if they do not convert. Cmom's example of cancer victim is an excellent one. It is simply a fact, when faced with death, man begins to think about what comes next. If he thinks seriously about it, he will come to the conclusion that he needs to do something to prepare for that.

[cmotherofpirl]

When I was lying in ICU in heart failure I had a definite urge to review the state of my soul.

Edited October 20, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[CatholicforChrist]

Here is a comprehensive and logical look at the death penalty. There has not been much coherent argumentation done. It has been a lot of opinion so far. Here goes:

"Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." c.f., Genesis ix.6

"He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death." c.f., Exodus xxi.12

Numbers XXV almost in its entirety illustrates God's institution of the death penalty and the means by which it should be instituted. The most relevant statement in this chapter not only allows the death penalty but absolutely commands it: "Defile not the land of your habitation, which is stained with the blood of the innocent: neither can it otherwise be expiated, but by his blood that hath shed the blood of another. And thus shall your possession he cleansed, myself abiding with you. For I am the Lord that dwell among the children of Israel." c.f., Numbers xxxv.33, 34

"In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land: that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord." Psalm C

"Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to thee, for good. [b]But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.[/b] Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake." c.f., Romans xiii.1-5 (emphasis added)

"He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Apocalypse xiii.10

All of these verses of the Bible illustrate the right and the duty of the government to execute the guilty. It should be noted the purpose of the death penalty as found in Sacred Scripture. Is the purpose solely in order to protect the innocent? It surely is not. There is very little mention of protecting the innocent. Rather, Sacred Scripture states that the death penalty is a form of justice for an action wrongly taken against another, a punishment for guilt. This is illustrated most strongly in Numbers XXXV and implicitly in the other verses. The Roman Catechism reaffirms this concept of the death penalty, that it should be used both as a means of protecting the innocent but also as a means of instituting justice with the authority which God has given the government, c.f., Romans xiii. The Roman Catechism, also called the Catechism of the Council of Trent, gives a reaffirmation of the concept of the death penalty as given to us from God and as practiced by the Jews and recorded by Sacred Scripture. It states:

"Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they [i]punish the guilty [/i][b]and[/b] protect the innocent. (N.B., the punishment of the guilty is listed before the protection of the innocent) The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of [b]paramount obedience [/b]to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord." c.f., Roman Catechism, On the Fifth Commandment (emphasis added)

The Roman Catechism here clearly reaffirms the constant teaching from Scripture as well as the historical use of the death penalty by the Jews and, more importantly, in the context of the tradition of the Church. It continues the belief that the punishment of the guilty is the primary intention and effect of the death penalty and calls the execution of criminals an act in paramount obedience to the Fifth Commandment. Finally, it calls to mind the words of David, thus reaffirming the Old Testament decrees as valid teachings concerning the death penalty. The idea that the death penalty is not necessary is a ridiculous claim to any informed Catholic, or human being for that matter. The death penalty is not only allowed by the Church but is commanded. God did not only give the government the right to kill criminals, but He commanded it, as is seen in Numbers XXXV and in Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans. It should be noted that the comments of the new Catechism leave the idea of justice completely out of the question when considering the death penalty and that the claims made in the Catechism should be critiqued heavily for several reasons. Firstly, the new Catechism's claim that the death penalty has been solely instituted to protect the innocent finds no origin in Church tradition or even human history. Secondly, the new Catechism provides no reference to previous Church teaching on the matter to support its claims. Thirdly, the new Catechism's claims concerning the death penalty are simply pastoral opinions by the authors and certainly do not enjoy infallibility. Fourthly, it can be derived that the new Catechism's decrees concerning the death penalty can be and must be rejected by faithful Catholics insofar as they are altogether unsupported, they find no precedence in even human history let alone Church tradition, and they are contrary to the teachings of a previous Catechism as well as the constant teaching of Sacred Scripture. God bless.

[qfnol31]

Just War Doctrine:
[quote]The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
[list]

[*]the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

[*]all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

[*]there must be serious prospects of success;

[*]the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

[/list]These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.[/quote]

Think of Capital Punishment in this sense of this above.

Edited October 21, 2004 by qfnol31

[popestpiusx]

The death penalty is justified on own terms. You don't have to aply the just war doctrine. It works, but it is not necessary.

[qfnol31]

Actually, it's the exact same principle, and it all really just comes down to Natural Law (and some Divine Law too) on why and when the death penalty is okay to use. That's why the just war doctrine fits perfectly because it all falls under Natural Law (and as I said, some Divine Law) and you can use it to justify use of Capital Punishment. In this case, it isn't justifiable on its own terms, but neither is a just war.

[popestpiusx]

It's not the same principle. The just war doctine does not have a provision for the restoration of justice, which the primary end of punishment. They are two entirely different principles.

By "on its own terms" I meant that you did not have to apply the just war doctrine. It has its own justification, which, as you rightly pointed out, is in the Natural Law, and in some cases, Divine Positive Law.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 21 2004, 01:46 PM'] The just war doctine does not have a provision for the restoration of justice, which the primary end of punishment.  They are two entirely different principles. [/quote]
I believe that implicit in the just war theory is the idea that we're restoring some injustice.

Also, I believe that because of the same ends and same ideas, you can apply the just war theory, though not necessary, to show when and why it is acceptable. I realize that capital punishment isn't okay because of the just war theory, but I would say that for the same reason a just war is okay the death penalty is too.


Both restore order to where there was a lack of due good.

Edited October 21, 2004 by qfnol31

[CatholicforChrist]

qfnol, the problem is your belief finds no support in the Old Testament, New Testament, early Church teaching, teaching of the Fathers, teaching of the Doctors, teaching of any Council, teaching of any Catechism (at least with good references, not circular references, referencing a fallible statement made by the author himself to support another fallible statement), etc. If you would like to propose some sort of argument, please address my sources; try to apply the just war theory on the Old Testament's command to kill a murderer in order to remove the blood guilt from the land (and the various other sources I posted)...