Death Penalty

[White Knight]

I believe this is a black & white issue, no inbetween ground. If you Murder someone, that person sould be Loved, Forgiven, and Killed and thats that.

[b]If You Kill someone, You die, but never, hold a grudage against the murder ever, just forgiven them of that crime, contunie to love them, and then put them down.[/b]

I believe it says somewhere in the Old Testment that if a man killers another man, he sould be put to death. I think Noel mentioned it.

Anyway, I started a poll on this, and I'm sorry if anyone didn't like that option where you couldn't debate the issue, I'm just really freakin tired of this issue, being so uneccessarly confusing.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Enda' date='Oct 16 2004, 05:57 PM'] Come here to Virginia. We execute more people then Texas now, even minors. You'd be in good company.

[/quote]
I'm from Virginia and you are exaggerating.

[quote]As a Virginian it seems like we're executing a prisoner every week[/quote]

Every week, huh? First, this is not true. Second, when the state does execute they spare no expense to ensure the guilt of the criminal. Second, one of the contributing factors of our low crime rate is the fact that people are afraid to commit capital crimes in Virginia. Why? Just ask John Mohammed. He is getting ready to find out why.

[quote]if you read the people who support it (ie the family members of the victim and the victim's friends) the entire justification is revenge.[/quote]

What you are calling revenge may be just that, in which case it would be bad (at least as a motivation), but it could also be what the Church has traditionally referred to a resorative justice.

[quote]I don't understand why Catholics who still support the death penalty can't see this. How can you justify this?[/quote]

I don't understand why you can't see that the death penalty is a perfectly legitimate form of punishment, so long as certain requirements are met. It has always been defended by the Church. In fact, until 1969 the Vatican itself had use of it. It was not until the last 15 or 20 years that Catholics have tried to present it as opposed to Church teaching. It is impossible that something the Church has always defended (at least in principle), without exception, could suddenly become immoral based on nothing more than the opinion of one Holy Father. That's not how the Church works.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would also like to point out that our Holy Father is not diametrically opposed to the death penalty either. As has been stated many times already, he still views it as permissible in extreme circumstances. Thus, people who would attack the death penalty cannot fall back upon this vague notion that the Holy Father supports them: he does not.

[mulls]

for the sake of the accused, i'm against the death penalty. i'd much rather he spend life in prison and possibly come to repentance and to know Christ than to have his life cut short when an unforgiving eternity awaits.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='mulls' date='Oct 19 2004, 11:12 AM'] for the sake of the accused, i'm against the death penalty. i'd much rather he spend life in prison and possibly come to repentance and to know Christ than to have his life cut short when an unforgiving eternity awaits. [/quote]
yeah, me too...

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='mulls' date='Oct 19 2004, 12:12 PM'] for the sake of the accused, i'm against the death penalty. i'd much rather he spend life in prison and possibly come to repentance and to know Christ than to have his life cut short when an unforgiving eternity awaits. [/quote]
I think a person is more likely to convert when staring death in the face. Prison is not known for being overly conducive to living a Christian life. Most conversion are to Islam. There are actually statistical figures on this. I'll see if I can find them.

[toledo_jesus]

I support the Death Penalty, because a state has the right to ensure its survival and the safety of its citizens. A dangerous person who can't reasonably be contained should be executed.

[XIX]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 19 2004, 12:39 PM'] I think a person is more likely to convert when staring death in the face. Prison is not known for being overly conducive to living a Christian life. Most conversion are to Islam. There are actually statistical figures on this. I'll see if I can find them. [/quote]
Conversions in the face of death--I would seculate that many of these are not genuine, but people converting just in case, or whatnot. I mean, it's hard to say that w/o making a judgement about the person's soul, but that is what it would seem like to me.

Better somebody convert to Islam out of some sort of true desire, than to be a pseudo-Catholic whose heart is really very far from Jesus.

Again, it is debatable. The fact of the matter is that the Church is against it unless it is necesary to contain the murderer--fallibly, I'm pretty sure.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='XIX' date='Oct 19 2004, 09:15 PM'] Better somebody convert to Islam out of some sort of true desire, than to be a pseudo-Catholic whose heart is really very far from Jesus.

[/quote]
The most common reason these guys convert to Islam in prison is for protection. It's like a gang. If you are in the Muslim gang you can avoid becoming Bubba's little plaything. Unless Buuba is a Muslim too, then I suppose that could get complicated, but you get the point.

[quote]Conversions in the face of death--I would seculate that many of these are not genuine, but people converting just in case, or whatnot.[/quote]

This may be true in some cases, but Aquinas seemed to think that it was pretty safe bet.

[mulls]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 19 2004, 01:39 PM'] I think a person is more likely to convert when staring death in the face. Prison is not known for being overly conducive to living a Christian life. Most conversion are to Islam. There are actually statistical figures on this. I'll see if I can find them. [/quote]
I hear you on the Islam thing, but I think an extended lifetime is a better avenue for possible conversion. The person is most likely to stare death in the face at some point in life anyway, so why speed a process that is shaky to begin with?

But I think this does the trick:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation..." 2 Peter 3:15


Time is a good thing, it appears.

[popestpiusx]

I think experience shows that the longer a person lives a certain way, the less likely they are to change. A long life in prison is more likely to make them hardened and bitter.

[mulls]

hmm, i've heard of some thriving prison ministries.

though it is true that most people come to Christ as a young person (though that's a protestant stat), why would you want to give up on people, especially when the Lord is patient with us?

(please don't take that as an attack)

[the_rev]

For my paper, I have to choose one side, and I can not be for and against.

Though, as a very Pro-Life person, I have chosen to be in favor the death penalty. Though, the morality behind it, and all other perspectives, says Rev should be against, I must choose to be for it.

Though, I do feel this leads a jury or judge, playing as God, also the possibility of putting a innocent person to death.

Here is my stance:

If there is DNA evidence, or balistics, that link the person to the crime of murder, I do feel since they took one's life, their life should be taken as well. Though repentance may come, to kill in cold blood, is just outrageous.

However, if the evidence is circumstantial and based only upon witnesses, then the person should not get death. This is where, maybe someone serving a life term, etc. would be getting a deal, saying, if you testify we will let you out in 15 years, for example. I do feel it is playing God, but to take one person's life, you should pay with yours.

[popestpiusx]

It's not a matter of giving up on them. They are free to convert anytime they please. That does not mean that the state must postpone what is a just punishment.

[mulls]

right, i never said the state should postpone anything. biblically speaking, i think the death penalty is fine.

but because i doubt our legal system gets it right all of the time, and because the Lord's is patient with us, i personally like life in prison better.

i'm not against the death penalty, but if one soul makes it to heaven because they were spared of it, than it's worth not having it. but as always, the Lord is in control.