Validity of Anglican Orders?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 27 2004, 09:56 PM'] Okay, fine. If you want to play hardball, I'm going to admit something.
[/quote]
You call this hardball? Dude... this is some weak stuff you're coming with. I say this because it appears you haven't looked in the right places for the answers to the misconceptions you post.

Please, for your own sake, stop trying to debate and just study.... Scripture and ECF writings and a lot of prayer would do you a lot of good...


[quote]We (at least many of us) don't have the same beliefs about the nature of the Eucharist as you Papists do (and yes, I'm using that word, because Ironmonk has been being a jerk to me, so I'm going to repay him in kind). And our ordinal reflects that. We don't blasphemously resacrifice Jesus as you Romans do. [/quote]

There is no resacrifice. The Sacrifice of the Mass happened in 33 AD when Christ was Crucified. "Once and for All" - means that it happened then, and will be good for all the future.

That's the faith of the Early Church Fathers that the Anglicans claim had the "primative faith"


[b]The Didache[/b]
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

[b]John Chrysostom[/b]

"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).

"Reverence, therefore, reverence this table, of which we are all communicants! Christ, slain for us, the sacrificial victim who is placed thereon!" (Homilies on Romans 8:8 [A.D. 391]).

"‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthy and awesomely does he [Paul] say it. For what he is saying is this: What is in the cup is that which flowed from his side, and we partake of it. He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise him in song, wondering and astonished at his indescribable gift, blessing him because of his having poured out this very gift so that we might not remain in error; and not only for his having poured it out, but also for his sharing it with all of us. ‘If therefore you desire blood,’ he [the Lord] says, ‘do not redden the platform of idols with the slaughter of dumb beasts, but my altar of sacrifice with my blood.’ What is more awesome than this? What, pray tell, more tenderly loving?" (Homilies on First Corinthians 24:1(3) [A.D. 392]).


[b]Augustine[/b]

"In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness" (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).

"For when he says in another book, which is called Ecclesiastes, ‘There is no good for a man except that he should eat and drink’ [Eccles. 2:24], what can he be more credibly understood to say [prophetically] than what belongs to the participation of this table which the Mediator of the New Testament himself, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, furnishes with his own body and blood? For that sacrifice has succeeded all the sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slain as a shadow of what was to come. . . . Because, instead of all these sacrifices and oblations, his body is offered and is served up to the partakers of it" (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]).


[b]Sechnall of Ireland[/b]

"[St. Patrick] proclaims boldly to the [Irish] tribes the name of the Lord, to whom he gives the eternal grace of the laver of salvation; for their offenses he prays daily unto God; for them also he offers up to God worthy sacrifices" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 13 [A.D. 444]).


[quote]We don't offer Him for the souls of the dead in 'purgatory', because such a place is a fable invented to fatten the pockets of corrupt men at the expense of dear souls. [/quote]

Here you go assuming again. As I have pointed out many times, Purgatory IS NOT a Catholic invention. The Catholic Church just gave what was already written in the Old Testament a name.

Isaiah 6:6-7 1 Peter 3:19
Matt. 12:32 Luke 12:59
2 Macc. 12:43-46 Rev 20:13-15
Rev. 21:27 1 Cor 3:15



[quote]You constantly beg the question in your debates, and try to force me to operate under your definitions of sola ecclesia, et al, that I do not accept.[/quote]

It is not my definition, it is the definition of the Early Church Fathers which you claim to hold their faith; as it has been pointed out in other threads here. Again... study would do you well.


[quote]As such, you make it impossible to have any kind of coherent discussion, because you either do not understand, or refuse to understand, that I do not agree with the presuppositions from which you approach arguments. [/quote]

Your frustration is due to the fact that you do not have the Early Church Fathers to back up your claims, whereas the Catholic Church does.



[quote]I do not believe that the Roman Bishop has any authority outside of the Church of Rome and those communions that choose to place themselves under his jurisdiction.[/quote]

You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the Early Church Fathers.... the "primative Church" which you claim to be part of.

[b]Pope Clement I[/b]

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).


[b]Hermas[/b]

"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).


[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).


[b]Dionysius of Corinth[/b]

"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).


[b]The Martyrs of Lyons[/b]

"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).


[b]Irenaeus[/b]

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

[b]Council of Sardica[/b]

"[I]f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (canon 3 [A.D. 342]).

"[I]f some bishop be deposed by the judgment of the bishops sitting in the neighborhood, and if he declare that he will seek further redress, another should not be appointed to his see until the bishop of Rome can be acquainted with the case and render a judgment" (canon 4).

[b]Synod of Ambrose[/b]

"We recognize in the letter of your holiness [Pope Siricius] the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and with pious care you guard Christ’s sheepfold [John 10:7ff], you that are worthy to have the Lord’s sheep hear and follow you" (Synodal Letter to Pope Siricius [A.D. 389]).


[b]Jerome[/b]

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).


[b]Augustine[/b]

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

[b]Council of Ephesus[/b]

"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members, by our holy voices, you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle. And since now [we], after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, [have] arrived, we ask that you order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).


[b]Council of Chalcedon[/b]

"Bishop Paschasinus, guardian of the Apostolic See, stood in the midst [of the Council Fathers] and said, ‘We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], who is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed to sit in the [present] assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat, he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out" (Acts of the Council, session 1 [A.D. 451]).

"After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!’" (ibid., session 2).


[quote]  Because the Anglican Communion chooses not to, I do not see why the Church of Rome should shun her any more than she shuns the Eastern Orthodox.[/quote]



Maybe you do not see it because you do not study enough.


Prove the Catholic Church wrong with Early Church Father writings and your points would have much more weight. Just one note, you might want to read a few paragraphs before and after the quotes you plan to use so that you get the proper context.

You can see the ECF writings for free at [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 28, 2004 by ironmonk

[hyperdulia again]

The blindness induced by heresy is tragic to behold. The blasphemies that men will pronounce while decrying the Church are heart breaking.

If all Catholics reading this thread would say one Our Father and three Hail Marys in Reperation to the Blessed Sacrament (aka God Almighty), Icthus might receive the grace of conviction by the Holy Spirit and conversion to Holy Mother Church.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Dec 27 2004, 11:39 PM'] The blindness induced by heresy is tragic to behold. The blasphemies that men will pronounce while decrying the Church are heart breaking.

If all Catholics reading this thread would say one Our Father and three Hail Marys in Reperation to the Blessed Sacrament (aka God Almighty), Icthus might receive the grace of conviction by the Holy Spirit and conversion to Holy Mother Church. [/quote]
I will not be convicted to return to Romanism by your Mary worship and adoring a piece of bread.

[Apotheoun]

It amazes me when I see how rapidly various threads degenerate into polemics.

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 12:50 AM'] I will not be convicted to return to Romanism by your Mary worship and adoring a piece of bread. [/quote]
In the Spanish Netherlands, about a century after Satan crawled from the pit of Hell and induced a lecherous drunken German monk to start the movement that led to the heresy you call Christianity, a group of Calvinist heretics marched into a small church intent on removing that piece of bread from the Altar. All but one of them were struck dead.

All demons hate the name of the Virgin, because it reminds them that in the end Her Son and His Church will triumph and they will be chained in the pit for all eternity.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Dec 28 2004, 02:47 AM'] All but one of them were struck dead.

[/quote]
Give me a historically credible source for this fable, and I might believe you.

[quote]All demons hate the name of the Virgin, because it reminds them that in the end Her Son and His Church will triumph and they will be chained in the pit for all eternity.[/quote] I don't hate the name of the Virgin Mary. I hate how men lift her up the the level of a demi-goddess and lead precious souls to Hell because of it

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 02:50 AM'] I will not be convicted to return to Romanism by your Mary worship and adoring a piece of bread. [/quote]
Ichy,

Again you only show your ignorance of the very thing that you call your faith and our Faith.

From an Anglican website.... There are many Anglicans that pray to Mary and even use the Rosary - [url="http://anglicansonline.org/resources/essays/whalon/AngRC-diffEng.html"]http://anglicansonline.org/resources/essay...RC-diffEng.html[/url].

Is it wise to argue what you haven't studied?

Debates with you are almost pointless because you have repeatedly failed to study the topics you try to debate. I say almost pointless because I agree with Thess, I'm sure those reading your posts who truly want to know Christ are pushed closer to Catholicism.

Christ wasn't hateful, as you have repeatedly been.... and yes, posting the same lie over and over has it's roots in hate.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Ianny01]

[quote]I will not be convicted to return to Romanism by your Mary worship and adoring a piece of bread. [/quote]

Please do not refer to the Eucharist as a mere piece of bread.

Sincerely,
Ianny01

[Apotheoun]

The Eucharistic theology of the Anglican Communion, although defective in many areas, is far closer to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist than ICTHUS seems to believe. The two links below are to documents issued by the Catholic Bishops of the British Isles and a response by the Anglican Church:

[url="http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/resource/obob/obob03.htm"]One Bread One Body - issued by the Catholics Bishops of the British Isles[/url]

[url="http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/ccu/england/catholics/eucharist.pdf"]The Eucharist: Sacrament of Unity - issued by the Church of England[/url]

God bless,
Todd

[hyperdulia again]

"Give me a historically credible source for this fable, and I might believe you"

The Protestant Reformation by Henri Daniel-Rops

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]"Give me a historically credible source for this fable, and I might believe you"

The Protestant Reformation by Henri Daniel-Rops

[/quote]

I am amused. That was just awsome.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Dec 28 2004, 01:42 PM'] "Give me a historically credible source for this fable, and I might believe you"

The Protestant Reformation by Henri Daniel-Rops [/quote]
Is the author a Christian, or a Roman Catholic? Or perhaps secular? I refuse to believe anything of this nature written by a Roman Catholic, as they only wish to discredit Protestantism.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 28 2004, 01:10 PM'] The Eucharistic theology of the Anglican Communion, although defective in many areas, is far closer to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist than ICTHUS seems to believe. The two links below are to documents issued by the Catholic Bishops of the British Isles and a response by the Anglican Church:

[url="http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/resource/obob/obob03.htm"]One Bread One Body - issued by the Catholics Bishops of the British Isles[/url]

[url="http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/ccu/england/catholics/eucharist.pdf"]The Eucharist: Sacrament of Unity - issued by the Church of England[/url]

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Perhaps I reacted too strongly to the above. I do not believe that the Eucharist is [i]merely[/i] bread. The Body and Blood of Christ are mystically present, somehow, in the consecrated elements, to be received by faith. Having said that, I reject transubstantiation, which leads to manifold idolatries. Which is why I made the comment about 'worshipping a piece of bread'

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 11:58 AM'] Perhaps I reacted too strongly to the above. I do not believe that the Eucharist is [i]merely[/i] bread. The Body and Blood of Christ are mystically present, somehow, in the consecrated elements, to be received by faith. Having said that, I reject transubstantiation, which leads to manifold idolatries. Which is why I made the comment about 'worshipping a piece of bread' [/quote]
Of course I don't expect you, or Anglicans in general for that matter, to accept the dogma of transubstantiation; but the rejection of that dogma is one of the reasons, although not the only one, why there cannot be intercommunion between the Catholic Church and the Anglican ecclesial communities that separated from her during the 16th century.

The document of the Anglican bishops, although a welcome statement of faith in the Eucharist, shows that they still do not comprehend the full power of the Eucharistic mystery as it is understood by both Eastern and Western Catholics.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 28 2004, 11:58 AM'] Perhaps I reacted too strongly to the above. I do not believe that the Eucharist is [i]merely[/i] bread. The Body and Blood of Christ are mystically present, somehow, in the consecrated elements, to be received by faith. Having said that, I reject transubstantiation, which leads to manifold idolatries. Which is why I made the comment about 'worshipping a piece of bread' [/quote]
If you acknowledge Christ's real presence in the Eucharist, how can you not worship and adore that Eucharistic presence? Even the Eastern Orthodox worship the Lord's Eucharistic presence during the Divine Liturgy, because just before communion the priest holds up the consecrated elements showing them to the people, who respond by adoring the Lord and saying, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, God the Lord has revealed Himself to us."

God bless,
Todd