The Development of Sin

[ForHimAlone]

Hey! Thanks for stopping by. I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have this friend who has recently left the Catholic Church and Christianity on a whole to become an agnostic. Here is his main reasoning:

He says that Christianity does not make sense. He says that God, being all-knowing, would have foreseen sin and the corruption of humanity. True. However, my friend goes on to say that God would have had to purposely create sin. He claims that because God is the creator of all things, He essentially created the reality of sin, as well. He says that God created Lucifer with the desires that drove him into evilness and eternal destruction. He then concludes that our Christian God can not exist because it would not make sense that He would send His own divine Son to be sacrificed in atonement for the sin He created into the world. He also concludes that in Christianity there is no such thing as free will and that God is dominant over every human action.

I've tried explanation after explanation, but he's still having trouble with it. If anyone could please help, I'd be much appreciative.

[StColette]

First of all God can not have created sin because sin is evil and anything that comes from God is esentially good. God did create Lucifer and we know that Lucifer was one of God's most beloved angels, but because of Lucifer's pride, ie sin, he was cast from Heaven. Free-will comes into play when it pretains to doing the will of God or not following it. We are each given free will and it is up to us to follow the will of God. We can either accept what He wants us to do or what He wishes us to do or we can be completely selfish and ignore that will. Pretaining to sin we can either accept to commit it or accept to turn from it. God wants us to turn from sin but it is up to us to do so it's part of our free will to either follow the commandments of God or to break them.

On his next comment

[quote]He then concludes that our Christian God can not exist because it would not make sense that He would send His own divine Son to be sacrificed in atonement for the sin He created into the world.[/quote]

Again, God did not create sin, which is evil. God is completely good and anything that comes from God is good. Even the Bible tells us that the only thing that is completely good is God. Something that is completely and wholy good can not bring forth something that is evil which is sin.

[quote]He also concludes that in Christianity there is no such thing as free will and that God is dominant over every human action.[/quote]

How can he say that there is no such thing as free will ? As person choses to kill someone out of their own decision, God doesn't make that decision for that person. I mean if I were to go out and rob a bank and say I didn't chose to do it God made me do it that would be utterly absurd. If I were to kill someone while robbing the bank and I said I didn't chose to do it God made me do it since He controls all my actions that would be uttely absurd since God comes right out and says You Shall not Steal and You Shall not Kill.

[ForHimAlone]

Thank you so much for your thoughts!! I completely agree with you, and I've tried so hard to explain to him how God could not conceivably have created the evil that is sin. It's so hard to see him do this because he's missing out on so much. I do thank you again for your insight, though. I'll be sure to share your thoughts with him and see if he reacts bette with someone else's point of view.

In the love of Christ,
Kathleen

[Cure of Ars]

I would give this article to your friend. I will pray for your friend as well.

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm[/url]

[D0RK4JP2]

Ive got a thought

If God has intended us to sin, then the logic follows, he has intended some to break his own law and therefore beaver dam some to hell. God is therefore not all good and is also an creator of badness, therefore God is contradicting Himself in giving us the 10 commandments because He has intended some of us to disobey Him. Therefore God could not be God at all because He is contradicting Himself.

That part of the argument at least, is protestant predestinationism.

You could then say that the difficulty is not in what God does, the problem may be that your friend doesn't understand (or believe) who God really is.

JMJ.

Edited October 14, 2004 by D0RK4JP2

[franciscanheart]

I prayed for your friend and for you.
If we didnt have free will.... there would be no point for our existance.
God put us on the earth to do His will and to serve Him in this life so that we may be happy and with Him throughout the next. He wouldn't put us here and make us all worship Him. He wants us to choose Him. He wants us to choose the good path. And think about it, how much more glorious it is when you chose to serve God and to love Him with all of your heart!!

[ForHimAlone]

Thank you so much for all your replies! You have many wonderful thoughts and explanations. I'll try to relate some of these to him. He's stopped listening to my thoughts, so maybe he'll listen to yours. God bless all of you. Thanks for the prayers. My poor friend has completely lost it. He now claims to be an anarchist and that nothing really exists. -Rolls eyes- Silly boy.

Truly, we have free will to choose to love God. It's beautiful, and it drives me crazy how he tries to say that Christianity makes us puppets on strings. Lord have mercy. Thanks again for all your thoughts, though!

[D0RK4JP2]

Remember to pray.

Jesus brings conversion of heart.
His truth makes sense, and is true.

Satan corrupts it.
His truth is nonsense, sounds stupid, and is not true.

Remeber to pray.

JMJ.

[Mary's Knight, La]

This is mentioned in Mere Christianity, which is a book your friend should read in its entirety:

a world comprised solely of automata wouldn't be a fitting act for a God of infinite power and goodness. as God He always has the ability to force anything to worship Him. however, in order for our choice to turn to Him to be meaningful we must be free to reject Him. can you really award the points for a question on a multiple choice test when there's only one answer? No, in order to get credit a student must choose the right answer *as opposed to the wrong answer*

free will is no more about sin than the law is about crime. Law exists not so that there might be crime but to define right action by defining it's limits,you are not physically prevented from acting outside of right conduct. in a similar sin is outside the limits of the proper use of free will.

another thing Lewis points out, Christianity teaches that sin and virtue aren't really about this life, but that this life is about being changed so that we may enjoy eternity. Your friend is forgetting that Christianity only makes sense if we're immortal. Were physical death the end of our existance, then indeed it would seem to make less sense to not do as we wish, in order to appease God when we will die soon enough and that will be the end of it. but if we are immortal as Christianity teaches, and this life is our opportunity to shape our immortal selves also as christianity teaches then it all fits together when we realize that original sin mangled us for eternity and it's Christ's death that allows us to be reshaped.

[phatcatholic]

yes, suggest to your friend that he read Mere Christianity. it is a short book, and easy to understand while at the same time a great defense for Christianity and God

[CreepyCrawler]

i'm not debating, i have a question about the explanations above. did God create Adam and Eve with a sin nature or no? How could they sin without a sin nature? Are bad things always present in us, even in Lucifer an angel or Adam the first man, or did the bad things in us come about as a result of the fall? Does anyone know?