What do you believe

[MichaelFilo]

I suggest you tell that to the people in the time of Pope Liberius, or Julius II, or even Alexander VI.

The Pope can err, and does. If you don't believe me, read the bible. However, he is the pastor of the Church, and should be obeyed when his directions are not in contradiction with the Catholic Faith and Morals.

God bless,
Mikey

[Socrates]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 18 2005, 12:53 PM'] I suggest you tell that to the people in the time of Pope Liberius, or Julius II, or even Alexander VI.

The Pope can err, and does. If you don't believe me, read the bible. However, he is the pastor of the Church, and should be obeyed when his directions are not in contradiction with the Catholic Faith and Morals.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
And who is to determine when his teachings are "in contradiction to Catholic Faith and Morals"??

[Paphnutius]

Ok here we go to throw another wrench in the debate. Concerning option B CCC 1790 ff:
[quote]1790 A human being must always obey the [b]certain judgment of his conscience[/b]. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin." 59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
[/quote]

Just thought that I would show that we are to follow the certian judgment of our conscience, which of course is to formed by seeking the Truth and acting upon moral choices. The conscience is indeed to be formed in line with the Church, but when presented with the option of B, we are always to follow the certain judgment of our conscience.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 18 2005, 01:22 PM'] Ok here we go to throw another wrench in the debate. Concerning option B CCC 1790 ff:


Just thought that I would show that we are to follow the certian judgment of our conscience, which of course is to formed by seeking the Truth and acting upon moral choices. The conscience is indeed to be formed in line with the Church, but when presented with the option of B, we are always to follow the certain judgment of our conscience. [/quote]
And read 1791 and 1792.

"Conscience" is often used by liberal dissenters to justify their opposition to the Church's moral teaching.

A true conscience is formed according to the Church's teachings. A poorly formed conscience can can be easily used an excuse to justify anything.

"I decided to follow my consience regarding my abortion, rather than the Pope."

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Socrates' date='May 18 2005, 01:27 PM'] "Conscience" is often used by liberal dissenters to justify their opposition to the Church's moral teaching. [/quote]
If they are using it is a shield then it is probably not the certain judgment of their conscience. Be careful of the wording. Certian judgment means that there is not a doubt that this is morally correct, you believe it with you innermost being. Those that say well my conscience told me to do so and leave it at that, probably are not acting in certain judgment, but are rather looking for a cop out.

[quote]A true conscience is formed according to the Church's teachings.  A poorly formed conscience can can be easily used an excuse to justify anything.
[/quote]

A properly formed conscience is one that seeks the Truth and conforms itself to it. The Church does this is as well and is responsible for helping to form it, but that is because the Church is also based on Truth. If you say that the conscience must be formed to the Church's teachings, then say you must always act in accord with your conscience you have made a circular argument for obeying the Church's teachings. It is a bit more complex than that. Both the Church and you conscience ought to seek the Truth and conform to it. The Church contains Truth so of course the conscience ought to be in line with the teachings, but to say that it must be grounded in teachings is not really a conscience acting, but a blind obedience to teaching.

It does not say that you will always be right when following the certain judgment, that is why I posted 1791 and 1792. You can be wrong, but to believe something will certain judgment but then to act contrary to that because of Church teaching would be to condemn yourself as the CCC says. It would damage your human dignity to believe in something fullheartedly and then to adandon it. That is what it is saying, not that you are always correct. It even says that it is possible that you will be wrong. It then goes on to clarify how much culpability may be due to the lack of seeking the truth and ignorance.

[quote]"I decided to follow my consience regarding my abortion, rather than the Pope."[/quote]

Is that a certain judgment of your conscience? Do you believe that without a doubt that in that case abortion would be fully justified? Do you think with your innermost being and dignity as a person that abortion is correct? If so then you would condemn yourself to act against that certain judgment of your conscience. You may be wrong that abortion is justified, but if you do not beyond a shadow a doubt (we are talking 100% believe) that believe that in this case abortion is justified you must act with that certain judgment. You could be wrong because of ignorance or failure to seek the truth, but if that is your certain judgment then...

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='superman2000' date='Oct 15 2004, 01:48 PM'] When we look in the Bible we find that prayer is directed to God alone. Asking a saint to help and guide or protect is something only God can do. As someone once put it, why go to the branch office when you can go to the president. There is not one example of a Christian addressing prayers to Mary or saints. Mary ROCKS, However, she is not the key. Jesus is the key, knock and it shall be opened unto you [/quote]
Incoorect the only thing we ever ask fro saints or angels for is to pray for us.... that is what the Chruch teaches us that the saints and angels can do for us.....now we humans in our ineptness to speak to God or the Saints say silly things in prayer that make it seem like we pray to the Saint sbut we don't...

why am I answering this in this thread? Oh well couldnt et this pass...

[Ash Wednesday]

Big fat A here. The pope is the man and Ratzinger ROCKS.

[missionarybelle]

A is the way to go!

[Twentie Fow]

A..no dizzout

[Didacus]

The pope is failable, but remains the highest authority on earth within the Roman Catholic Religion. His teachings should be respected at all times with regards to the fact that Jesus forever remains the true head of the Church.